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Beer Belly
Wiring for Cieling Fan

Got my 14/3 ran from and existing wall switch, to a new box in the cieling (Yes, it's attached to the joist).....so, whats the problem ???....the wall switch powers up one side of an outlet on a wall....so, when I look at the wall switch, I've got 2 black wires hooked up to the wall switch....2 whites wires tied together in the box.....and also a Red wire attatched to the wall switch.....I want to kill the switched outlet and have it powered....what has me confused, is the Red wire ??.....I'm thinking that one black and one white wire leads from the switch, to the outlet.....so I figure if I disconnect the leads from the swith to the outlet (Black & White).....and do the same on the outlet side, that would kill that wiring running in the wall (I'd still leave it in the box....just not used)....then replace the outlet, and it would be fully powered from the lead on the other side....then take the remaining Black & White wires, and wire my Cieling Fan to a new wall switch.....still wondering where this Red wire comes into play.....oh yes....neuteral wires are all tied together (Bare Wire = Neuteral ???). In case someone reading this hasn't read my other post....the Cieling Fan uses 2 wires to power up, and a remote to run fan and light seperately....I'm using 14/3 just in case the Wife changes her mind...then the wiring will be there.....WHEW...that was a lot

A. Spruce
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan

First thing you have to do is make sure you've got a black (hot ), white (neutral ), and ground to the switch box. You may have to rewire the outlet at the outlet box first to make this happen.

Assuming you're using a double switch box:
1 - Bundle all the whites together
2 - Bundle all the grounds together with two pigtails. Attach the ground pigtails to the ground (green ) lug on each switch.
3 - The incoming black gets two pig tails as well, one for each switch, attached to the bottom g-old* lug on the switches.
4 - Attach the out going red wire to the top g-old lug of the switch furthest from the door.
5 - Attach the outgoing black to the top g-old lug of the switch closest to the door.
6 - At the fan, the black incoming will be used to power the light, the red incoming will be used to power the fan.

If you're using a single switch box with a stacked switch, then you'll just use fewer pig tails in the making of the connections.

* the word "g o l d" is being captured by the spam filter, hence "g-old".

Beer Belly
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan

Thanks for the reply.....it is a single switch box....any clue what the Red wire is for ??....I've replaced fixtures and such....real simple...attach the whites...attach the blacks, and so on.....never ran into an extra (Red) wire

JLMCDANIEL
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan

Most likely what you have is a line in with hot and neutral (Black, White), and a line out (Black, White) powering the bottom half of the out let or another outlet, and the Red is the switched lead to the other half of the outlet.

Jack

Beer Belly
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan

Jack, Thanks.....I guess I'll know more when I pull out the outlet from it's box and see whats there.

A. Spruce
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan

I'm sorry, I thought you were wondering what the red wire in the new 14/3 you ran was for. :o

See what happens when you can't make big waving hand gestures and draw picture on a 2x4 with a carpenter's pencil?;)

Is it possible that the switch was part of a 3-way circuit? Was the outlet switched from two different locations in the room? Jack is rarely wrong, but just in case, I thought I'd throw that out there. :D

canuk
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan
JLMCDANIEL wrote:

Most likely what you have is a line in with hot and neutral (Black, White), and a line out (Black, White) powering the bottom half of the out let or another outlet, and the Red is the switched lead to the other half of the outlet.

Jack

I was thinking the same thing -- which means there is a 14/3 running to the receptacle --- though Sprucey brought up another scenerio , though, I haven't seen 3way switch circuit control a receptacle -- I guess it is possible.

Beer Belly wrote:

Got my 14/3 ran from and existing wall switch, to a new box in the cieling (Yes, it's attached to the joist).....so, whats the problem ???

....the wall switch powers up one side of an outlet on a wall....so, when I look at the wall switch, I've got 2 black wires hooked up to the wall switch....2 whites wires tied together in the box.....and also a Red wire attatched to the wall switch.....I want to kill the switched outlet and have it powered....what has me confused, is the Red wire ??.....
Based on the above thought of having the supply ( line in ) coming into the switch box this is what I would expect to see ......

2 black wires along with a short pig tail all wire nutted together with the the short pigtail connected to the bottom screw of the switch.

Red wire connected to the top screw on the switch.

( it may also be possible that instead of 2 black wires with the pigtail -- there may be one black and the red along with the short pigtail wire nutted instead. This would mean a black would be connected to the top screw on the switch. )

2 white wires connected together with a wire nut.

I'm thinking that one black and one white wire leads from the switch, to the outlet.....so I figure if I disconnect the leads from the swith to the outlet (Black & White).....and do the same on the outlet side, that would kill that wiring running in the wall (I'd still leave it in the box....just not used)....then replace the outlet, and it would be fully powered from the lead on the other side....
The problem with this thought -- based on the layout Jack posted that receptacle is being supplied from those wires you want to disconnect ( black and white ) and any other receptacles downstream from that receptacle will also be disconnected.

then take the remaining Black & White wires, and wire my Cieling Fan to a new wall switch.....still wondering where this Red wire comes into play.....oh yes....neuteral wires are all tied together (Bare Wire = Neuteral ???).
The bare wire(s) = grounding
White = neutral

In case someone reading this hasn't read my other post....the Cieling Fan uses 2 wires to power up, and a remote to run fan and light seperately....I'm using 14/3 just in case the Wife changes her mind...then the wiring will be there.....WHEW...that was a lot

If reading your post correctly and doing the count you have 8 conductors ( not including the bare ground ) coming into that switch box. That is way too many wires for a standard single device switch box and is a hazard and not to code. In which case that box would need to changed to something larger.

Beer Belly
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan

In the wall switch box there are 2 black wires, and one red wire hooked up to the switch....there are also 2 white wires tied together. I'm thinking that when this all shakes outs, I'll have in the wall switch box 2 blacks (hot), 2 whites (neutrel) and 2 bare (ground)...the 2 blacks hooked up to one side of the switch (seperately)...2 whites hooked up to the other (seperately), and the grounds tied together....also an unused wire from the 14/3 leading to the cieling fan. Sorry, I always get the neutrel/ground wires confused:p . I'm was an auto tech in my previous career, and the train of thought is that power and ground to the switch (from power source)....power and ground out of the switch (to end user). I was told by a friend, that there is probably a seperate lead continuously powering the other half of the wall outlet, and after disconnecting the wires from the switch and upper half of the outlet, just replace the outlet and just wire up from the other power source......I haven't opened up the outlet box yet, so I don't know what is there....but can tell you that only half of the outlet is switched.

canuk
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan
Beer Belly wrote:

In the wall switch box there are 2 black wires, and one red wire hooked up to the switch....there are also 2 white wires tied together. I'm thinking that when this all shakes outs, I'll have in the wall switch box 2 blacks (hot), 2 whites (neutrel) and 2 bare (ground)...the 2 blacks hooked up to one side of the switch (seperately)...2 whites hooked up to the other (seperately), and the grounds tied together....also an unused wire from the 14/3 leading to the cieling fan. Sorry, I always get the neutrel/ground wires confused:p . I'm was an auto tech in my previous career, and the train of thought is that power and ground to the switch (from power source)....power and ground out of the switch (to end user). I was told by a friend, that there is probably a seperate lead continuously powering the other half of the wall outlet, and after disconnecting the wires from the switch and upper half of the outlet, just replace the outlet and just wire up from the other power source......I haven't opened up the outlet box yet, so I don't know what is there....but can tell you that only half of the outlet is switched.

Beer Belly -- perhaps I'm not reading your orginal post correctly --- this is how I read it........

the switch box orginally has-- red - 2 blacks - 2 whites --- you added a 14/3 from that switch box location to a new ceiling box.
Is that correct?

There shouldn't be 2 black wires connected to one screw -- those connections are only made for one wire.

What we are saying is --- supply current for the receptacles circuit is coming from the panel to the switch box location first -- then it's being fed to the receptacles from there.
If you disconnect the black and white at the switch box and at the receptacle you are disconnecting the feed to the other receptacles downstream as well .

Bottom line --- if you open up that switched receptacle see if the red wire is connected to one half and a blacks to the other half --- as well as the whites.

A. Spruce
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan
Beer Belly wrote:

.....I haven't opened up the outlet box yet, so I don't know what is there....but can tell you that only half of the outlet is switched.

With this information I suspect that Jack called it, the red powers the switched half of the outlet, while the black brings the power from the hot half of the outlet to the switch.

If this is the case, then what you'll have to do is either replace the outlet or run a pigtail jumper to power both halves of the outlet. Leave the black hot up to the switch, cap the red at the outlet and at the switch box and push into the back of the boxes. Verify that the whites are bundled and the grounds are bundled at the outlet. Now the outlet will be hot all the time and you'll have power to the switch box.

canuk
Re: Wiring for Cieling Fan
A. Spruce wrote:

With this information I suspect that Jack called it, the red powers the switched half of the outlet, while the black brings the power from the hot half of the outlet to the switch.

If this is the case, then what you'll have to do is either replace the outlet or run a pigtail jumper to power both halves of the outlet. Leave the black hot up to the switch, cap the red at the outlet and at the switch box and push into the back of the boxes. Verify that the whites are bundled and the grounds are bundled at the outlet. Now the outlet will be hot all the time and you'll have power to the switch box.

I doubt that's the case --- too many conductors.

If the branch feed to the receptacles first then all that's needed is 2 conductors routed to the switch. Likely it would be a 14/2 with the white marked black as the constant feed and the black as the switched conductor going back to the receptacle *S*

I believe the branch feed is 14/2 ( black and white ) comes from the panel into the switch box.
From there a 14/3 feeds the receptacles ...

black -- connected to bottom half of receptacle *S* which is constant power. This also feeds the other receptacles downstream on the branch.

Red -- connected at the switch and from there the top half of receptacle *S* providing switched power .

It's the presence of the white neutrals in the switch box location that points to this and is the most common wiring scheme I see.

However, an exception could be the branch feed does go to the receptacles first and then is extended somewhere else . In which case that would be why explain the 5 conductors inside the switch box.

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