47 posts / 0 new
Last post
westom
Re: Whole House Surge Protector
djohns wrote:

While your at it , how about giving us some details on your " single point earthing " . Maybe some photos of your own installation .

Start by learning what 'no damage ever' installations do. For example, Orange County FL emergency response system was suffering repeated lightning failures. So they installed no protectors. Instead, a solution was to fix single point earth ground:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

That is where most every 'surge' solution begins. A Nebraska radio station suffered damage. Finally they decided to stop implementing myths. The consultant fixed the earthing:
http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/nebraska.html

Read what they did. For example, the ill informed actually disconnected earth on some myth that ground was attracting lightning. Even well published technical discussions from the ARRL (QST Magazine) say otherwise.

Step one. Restore the earthing. Every protection layer (contrary to popular myths) is defined only by earthing. So they fixed even the primary protection system by getting the utility's single point ground upgraded. Another picture demonstrates where you must perform your inspection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

US Air Force is blunt about where the protector must be in instruction manuals:
> Grounding Systems
> Introduction. This section covers requirements for grounding and
> lightning protection systems, including systems installed on or in
> areas such as explosives buildings, magazines, operating locations
> and shelters.

Get the idea? The protection system must always work – no failures. Air Force continues:
> 15. Surge Protection.
> 15.1. Entering or exiting metallic power, intrusion detection,
> communication antenna, and instrumentation lines must have surge
> protection sized for lightning surges to reduce transient voltages
> to a harmless level. Install the surge protection as soon as practical
> where the conductor enters the interior of the facility. Devices
> commonly used for this include metal oxide varistors, gas tube
> arresters, and transzorbs.

This is where you ask why you and your peers do not know this. So many (a majority) will 'know' without first learning what has been common knowledge and a well proven science for over 100 years. Surge protection demonstrates how many are educated by hearsay and advertising – not from science.

Worse, those who were so blatantly misinformed will attack the messenger rather than the original lying myth purveyor.

Another informed source:
http://www.tschmidt.com/writings/HomeLAN2008.htm
> 6.10 Secondary Lightning Protection
> The key to minimizing lightning damage is bonding all services together with a
> low impedance path to earth ground. All conductors entering the building must
> be bonded together and equipped with lightning protection. This minimizes
> difference in potential during transient conditions.
>
> 6.10.1 Electrical
> Whole house surge protector should be used to protect the electrical system.
> Remember goal is to direct excessive energy into a low impedance ground
> and to provide low impedance bonding of all metallic conductors. We use a
> GE THQLSURGE protector. Installation is easy it plugs into the main breaker
> panel much like an ordinary two-pole breaker.
>
> Lightning protectors do not absorb energy they divert it. If the diversion path
> is not low impedance a substantial voltage difference is created. This is what
> kills electronic gear.
>
> 6.10.2 Telephone
> Telephone Company provides lighting protection as part of the NID.
> Electronic devices are more fragile than electromechanical phones; this is
> especially the case with computer equipment because they have multiple
> connections, power, phone, DSL and Ethernet. This makes equipment more
> susceptible to line surges. Adding secondary protection minimizes risk of
> equipment damage. The best location for secondary protection is at building
> entry point. This allows protector to use low impedance power mains earth
> ground to minimize voltage difference between services.

How many knew all phone lines already have a ‘whole house’ protector always installed at the subscriber interface? Most do not because most ‘surge protection’ knowledge comes from the electrically most naïve. NIDs contain a ‘whole house’ protector which only a minority – the informed – understand.

Now for Sun Microsystem's Planning Guide for the Sun Server Room. Maybe they know something better?
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans
> for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths
> for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors can be designed
> into the system to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage
> within the data center. These should divert the power of the surge by
> providing a path to ground for the surge energy. Protection should be
> placed on both the primary and secondary side of the service transformer.
> It is also necessary to protect against surges through the communications
> lines. The specific design of the lightning protection system for the data
> center will be dependent on the design of the building and utilities and
> existing protection measures.

What we do know. When responsible facilities install surge protection, they waste no money on 'miracle' plug-in solutions. That money is better spent upgrading what provides protection – where energy must dissipate harmlessly - single point earth ground.

Earth ground begins by meeting post 1990 National Electrical code. Code defines six types of electrodes in Article 250.52. Of those six, only one is not sufficient and must always be supplemented - cold water pipe ground.

That is earthing for human safety. Exceed those code requirements also for transistor safety. For example, no splices, short (ie ‘less than 10 feet’), no sharp wire bends, wire separated from other non-grounding wires, etc.

Why was Ufer ground pioneered? So that direct lightning strikes would not cause munitions explosions. Ufer grounds should be standard procedure on all new homes. But that means a majority – especially builders who are so resistant to change - must be reeducated in something that was well understood even 50 years ago.

In most cases, a single or network of ten foot ground rods may be sufficient. But that is a function of underlying geology, soil type, nearby buried items (ie transcontinental pipeline), frequency of surges (neighborhood history for at least ten years), etc.

'Whole house' protector is simple science. Any layman can properly install one by remembering simple concept such as a “wire to single point ground must be as short as possible”. No sharp wire bends. Not inside metallic conduit. No splices. Ground wire separated from all other wires. A ground wire from the breaker box over a foundation and down to earth (what most electricians do) obviously violates at least three of those 'no-no's.

To better understand what has been so well understood for so many years, read the many highly regarded application notes from Polyphaser:
http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx

None of this is difficult - except where so many have been educated by retail store propaganda. Some just refuse to forget myths - what they were first told. Then will have trouble understanding the well proven science that contradicts those retail myths. Plug-in protectors do not claim surge protection in their numeric specs for one glaring reason. No short and dedicated connection to what is always essential to surge protection: single point earth ground.

Protection has always been about where energy dissipates. Always. How does hundreds of joules in a plug-in protector absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which is why the word scam is relevant when recommendations for APC, Tripplite, Belkin, or Monster Cable arrive. To have hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth means a low impedance (not low resistance) connection to single point earth ground. Every foot longer in that connection simply lessens protection.

djohns
Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Interesting examples . But , give us YOUR definition of " single point earthing " . Not something you Googled . I'm seeing some contradictions in what you say , and the examples you cite . Clear it up for me .

Ernie_Fergler
Re: Whole House Surge Protector
djohns wrote:

Interesting examples . But , give us YOUR definition of " single point earthing " . Not something you Googled . I'm seeing some contradictions in what you say , and the examples you cite . Clear it up for me .

Those long posts reminds ya somewhat of someone else who seemed to GOOGLE her way across the board...:D

djohns
Re: Whole House Surge Protector
Ernie_Fergler wrote:

Those long posts reminds ya somewhat of someone else who seemed to GOOGLE her way across the board...:D

Oh , don't think I didn't consider that .:)
Not to mention the timing of everything . Date posted . Date joined . You know ....;)

westom
Re: Whole House Surge Protector
djohns wrote:

Interesting examples . But , give us YOUR definition of " single point earthing " . Not something you Googled .

Googling is what you can do now that you have been taught reality. Your questions clearly intended to mock (with snide superiority) are unwelcome.

djohns
Re: Whole House Surge Protector
westom wrote:

Googling is what you can do now that you have been taught reality. Your questions clearly intended to mock (with snide superiority) are unwelcome.

I've been taught reality ? :D:D:D That's funny . My questions are clearly intended to show that your knowledge base comes from the internet . And I think I succeeded . See ya' around , Leslie . ;)

havanagranite
Re: Whole House Surge Protector

lets please remember that anything may be posted on the internet but that doesn't make it truth. and someone who bases everything they say on google search and try to convince others that it is the best way and safest way with out any first hand knowledge themselves are setting themselves and others up for disaster.

better to be thought a fool then to open one's mouth (or start typing) and remove all doubt.

westom
Re: Whole House Surge Protector
djohns wrote:

My questions are clearly intended to show that your knowledge base comes from the internet

Your statement proves Rush Limbaugh has taught you well. You demonstrate no electrical knowledge as only an ill informed cheap shot artist would post.

Provide from many responsible and highly regarded sources were quotes and citations. Anyone with minimal electrical knowledge knows what earth ground is. And appreciate the validity of citations with the always necessary reasons why. But that assumes you have simple electrical knowledge. You do not even know what earth ground is? Apparently. How poorly educated are you? A logical question based in your poorly worded accusations and sentences.

Moving back to reality and science. The NIST (US government research agency) is blunt about why ground is so important:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will
> work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection
> in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Other sources describe why and how to install effective earthing such as highly regarded Polyphaser application notes:
http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx

Or learn from Duke Energy how to fix defective earthing – how to create sngle point earth ground. Oh. Duke Energy also lies?:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

Or one can post more cheap shots because that is the full extent of his education. Others should learn the science; ignore how the less educated only post insults.

JLMCDANIEL
Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Westom,
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html while an indictment against the local utility company’s up keep of equipment and their personnel trespassing, it is hard to take serious as an expert site when they state “A person living at the end of the grid, and has a "drop" voltage to his home of 115 volts per leg, pays for 100 watts for a 100 watt, 115 volt filament type light bulb. But the person living at the head end of the grid, who receives 125 volts per leg on the "drop" to his house, PAYS ALMOST 20% MORE ON HIS ELECTRIC BILL”. Kind of flies in the face of Ohms Law.

http://www.tschmidt.com/writings/HomeLAN2008.htm this is presented as part of a “blog of personal musings” with no credentials provided and includes such diverse topics as how he organized his cables. I suspect most of the information was not from personal expertise but cut and paste from other sources, Google perhaps.

The rest of your linked sources (all with vested interests) are all purveyors of surge suppressors and associated equipment, none of which provide a guarantee against lightening damage. In fact most state that there is no guarantee, you can only minimize the chance of damages.

Is grounding important to minimize lightening damage, yes, is it a panacea for all lightening strikes, no. That is demonstrated by the fact that lightening can enter a structure on the ground lines and that it doesn’t always take the path of least resistance an fact know for over 100 years.

If I remember correctly, Ufer grounding was developed to compensate for poor dry soil conditions in a desert setting and primarily to proved a path for static discharge by ammunition handlers rather than lightening. One of the reasons it is not commonly used is because of the additional costs involved in construction while proving little additional benefit over cheaper grounding electrodes in most localities.

Bonding is for human safety not grounding.

Considering your writing skills and sentence structure, I don’t believe you should be criticizing otheres for theirs. I’m guessing English is not your first language.

Jack
 

westom
Re: Whole House Surge Protector
JLMCDANIEL wrote:

Westom,
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html while an indictment against the local utility company’s up keep of equipment and their personnel trespassing,

Why are you posting irrelevant nonsense. Picture is cited to show only one thing. The item that provides a primary protection system. Picture shows what to inspect when the primary protection system is compromised. Was that picture too difficult for your comprehension? No. Helpful is to read what was posted; not add irrelevant trivia. But any excuse to post nasty accusations is your purpose. Pictured is what a homeowner should inspect to have a functioning primary protection system. Is that restatement simple enough?

tschmidt is a professional who does this stuff. You are a cheap shot artist who attacks only to argue. Which one has credibility? Only a cheap shot artist, trying to appear superior, would take a cheap shots at professionals and experts. Yes, we are discussing why you keep posting nonsense. It is not to learn technology.

Did you forget to criticize the NIST? They also contradict your nasty accusations and 'Google search' conclusions. Why did you forget to criticize the NIST? Another responsible source contradicts your accusations. So you pretend NIST's facts do not exist?

Ground is the solution for lightning protection. Protection has always been about where energy dissipates - no matter how much you distort reality. Ground is inspected first when a human failure results in lightning damage. Basic electrical knowledge says why lightning does not enter via ground. I will put the phrase that says why, this time, inside quotes so that you cannot miss it for a sixth time. It is called "single point ground".

Did your Google searches forget to mention why single point earthing is so effective? Probably not. Ignoring that reality is how to create another strawman. Single point grounding routinely eliminates that and other similar problems such as ground loops. Why do you conveniently ignore what even your Google search made obvious?

You don't remember correctly because you never knew of Ufer grounds until I provided that knowledge. Ufer grounds are more conductive grounds for so many reasons. Oh. Electric currents can ignore more conductive path to instead use less conductive paths? You posted it. Amazing how electricity now violates what was known even 100 years ago. Amazing what qualifies for education these days. This nastiness is what you started and want. So let's discuss whether you even graduated high school. Apparently not since electricity now ignored more conductive circuits. Your education is just too thin to justify that ego.

Since Ufer grounds are deep in soil - always moist - then Ufer grounds are more conductive. A preferred ground often installed to avert lightning damage. An excellent solution for making surge protectors even more effective. An excellent solution because electricity flows in the more conductive paths - no matter what myths you might invent. Superior earthing - a more conductive path - was and still is essential to surge protection.

So where is your cheap shot at the US Air Force? Oh. That Air Force requirement was so bluntly accurate that you could not take a cheap shot at the US Air Force? Could not cheap shot the ARRL? Could not dispute how grounding eliminated surge damage to a Nebraska radio station? Could not disagree with how Orange County FL eliminated lightning damage? Or were their sentences just too long and complicated?

How strange. Even Sun Microsystems makes reality so obvious. So why did you forget to attack Sun? What would Rush Limbaugh do? Personal attacks. What was your every post? Disparaging remarks. Are you really Rush Limbaugh? Your memory seems to be so similar to his.

Why was Ufer ground pioneered? So that direct lightning strikes would not cause munitions explosions. Ufer grounds or equivalent should be standard for all new homes because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Oh. You forgot what makes direct lightning strikes and other surges irrelevant? How convenient. Then you can create more strawmen and argue.

Bonding is for numerous functions. One of the better known reasons is human safety. Apparently that is your entire knowledge of bonding. Even your Google search said bonding does more. But that is what ego does. Makes you read only what you want to read.

Direct lightning strikes with no damage are routine. Protection from direct lightning strikes is so routine that damage is considered a human failure. Yes, human failure is why damage occurs. Instead, Oh the stories you could tell? By conveniently ‘forgetting’, you never learned what was known even 100 years ago. Even sentences written back then required a high school reading ability.

Informed consumers can learn from more responsible sources such as Polyphaser's legendary application notes at:
http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx
How will you take a cheap shot at Polyphaser?

IEEE Standard 141 (The Red Book) also describes how surge protection works:
> In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the process of
> interception of lightning produced surges, diverting them to ground, and
> by altering their associated wave shapes.

Another source so that you can cheap shot. Strange how many professional know things you don't. So you take every opportunity to accuse and obfuscate reality. You really are Rush Limbaugh, aren't you.

When you are ready, we can discuss your apology. Or you now have an even longer list of professionals to attack. Your choice.

Pages

Sponsored Stories

TV Listings

Find TV listings for This Old House and Ask This Old House in your area.