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JLMCDANIEL
Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop
Blue RidgeParkway wrote:

here is a link to a NAIMA document i think you should check out.

http://www.naima.org/pages/resources/library/pdf/MB316.PDF

this link has useful example pictures: http://www.metalbuildinginsulation.com/PostFramePoleBldg.htm

as mentioned your truss diagrams have the limits of loading within the truss. overloading the loft trusses or loading in the zero zone can cause issues all that dead load gets transfered to the bottom chord on points of the web not spread out to the air. questions on the camber and strength or how to read the engineered diagrams you can refer to your supplier. would never use household kraft faced fiberglass in metal sheathed and roofed pole building.

i wouldn't assume you have room-in-attic trusses, most common is a storage-in-attic truss big difference, storage-in-attic truss is not designed to be finished beyond a loft floor - big difference! if room-in-attic trusses they still are limited to loading and finish materials especially metal pole building.

good luck to you.

BRP,I think the concern about loading was answered by the OP when he stated "Yes, the trusses were indeed designed to carry the load of power tools and all, and be finished."
However your point about kraft backed insulation is a very valid point.
Jack

Blue RidgeParkway
Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop
JLMCDANIEL wrote:

BRP,I think the concern about loading was answered by the OP when he stated "Yes, the trusses were indeed designed to carry the load of power tools and all, and be finished."
However your point about kraft backed insulation is a very valid point.
Jack

actually after all the unqualified statements wild assumptions and personal attacks from others that littered this topic string i went the extra mile and visited his forum

(found the web address BEFORE he posted on this string today, by going to his photo page home page http://theamcpages.com and saw the april blog post) this morning and saw his post regarding the truss diagram bad photo copy he had where he stated the loft area was spec'd 40 psf live load and 10 psf dead load. Just as I suspected since he had referred to this as a LOFT and the ceiling clearances! http://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7044&PN=2

10 lbs psf dead load would be exceeded by 1/2" drywall one layer and support "rails" or purlins for nailers on the "walls" and an enclosed "ceiling" for the loft area (8.9 lbs psf DL plus insulation and "nailers" for just the "walls") this gets transfered to the point load on the chord which are 2' OC. he proposes to insulate the loft "room" not the building's roof that's additional DL. his photo pages show 8' lights loaded and romex that's additional load. if he gets a stamped original of his truss diagrams he'll see that the area beyond the loft is likely rated zero psf or nearly zero DL and LL for the area so his installed niche storage would be a no-no and he'd have additional DL on the loft "walls" which transfers to the chords. The 3/4" plywood floor is already loading the loft zone DL on the storage trusses.

10 lbs psf DL indicates a storage-in-attic unfinished loft was designed for not room-in-attic trusses.

acoustical insulated ceiling panels plus track system equals about two pounds per square foot loading installed.

probably saved about three to four thousand net by not opting for the room-in-attic trusses for the building upgrade. bottom line, the building isn't designed to do with what he stated his plans were to do up in the loft area according to what he stated on his own forum about the truss diagram. the "garage" area below was designed to be finished but the loft area was NOT designed to be finished as he intends:p.

i'm suspect of his insulation and poly job before he finished garage area due to his in progress photos no sealing on the poly use of poly and pink etc. and his bug complaints dont see rodent protection either on his web page and his lack of info regarding the building ventillation issues.

Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

The building was done by a crew who have done many dozens of not only storage, but shop and business buildings as well.
The building was put up, floor poured, then insulation put in, plastic put up, then the steel. the walls are fully insulated and sealed with vapor barrier on the inside, the ceiling done the same - plastic was put up, then the steel ceiling. The insulation was then put in from above, leaving the very ends open to allow air to get in through the vented sofits (sp)up along the lower side of the roof steel, then out the ridge vent system. I put pink foam in between the boards on the ends, then put up a sheet of heavy plastic, then sheetrock. When the upstairs walls and ceiling area are done, there will still be plenty of room for air to flow in the lower vents, along the roof and out the ridge. A lot like I've done house attics - allow air to come in and rise and go out, not blocking air to the bottside, or underside of the roof panels.
the supplier was told it "is going to be a finished woodworking shop with all of my tools carried up there" so fully intended it to be finished. Like I said, I told them that from day 1. They always knew it would be finished, always new it would be tools and storage and work area. That was never left a question, and again, that is why they called me back, to ask if they could beef things up a bit.
I was at one time the properties manager for On With Life, Inc, in Ankeny and oversaw the finishing up of their building. I was hired just after it was framed. I pick things up pretty quickly.

The lower level is made and finished as good as any building I've ever seen used for garage/shop/storage. The concrete is against the outer steel, the inner wall sits on the concrete. I could NOT talk the concrete contractor into laying plastic sheet under the concrete. He was an old fellow who argued and argued and finally threw a fit and said it would cost so much more I finally gave in since the OTHER crew was sitting waiting on him so they could get back in and finish the interior. (I painted the concrete with Behr 1-part epoxy concrete finish. Not as nice as 2-part epoxy, but works)
I call EVERY single upper area in ANY garage or shop or work area a loft. This is Iowa, that's what we call 'em. So my OTHER garage has a "loft" too even though it's a STEEL BRIDGE I-BEAM supporting it with 2x7's spanning only 14' spaced 16" apart. I could put my engines up there, but it's a loft since it's the upper level of a garage or shop, not a house. If it's a house, it's the upper story, if it's a garage, it's loft in this part of the county. So please don't let a single word define the strength or lack there-of. Semantics..........

Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

OK, on the height - this county has a limit on how "tall" or the total height of an "outbuilding". So to comply, we had to keep the total height within limits but still give me a full 14' lower wall for a future lift. We missed, but they passed me. We were about 6" or so over max height of the building.

The bugs - found where they are getting in - the foam seals that are supposed to go under the roof panels, a couple apparently came out, leaving large openings at the bottoms of some roof panels for bugs to fly into the upper story area, wasps, etc. I can seal those. It's well vented in the vents under the eves then up through the ridge vent system. It will vent even after finished to keep condensation, etc. from collecting on the underside of the roof panels. Just like our house. The insulation doesn't block the eves or anywhere along the roof.

The lower area is almost always a full 10 degrees cooler (in the summer, that is!) than the outside temps unless you open the doors. It's well sealed.
I'd be surprised to see any rodents in there unless they ate up through the poles, but then, there's no openings into the lower level area, steel covers everything - EVERYTHING. There are no openings for anything to get in save for door openings, etc.

Insulation - I use kraft as I can staple it in place, I'm putting plastic on after the insulation, then the sheetrock or whatever.

havanagranite
Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

well bill it looks like you may have a handle on who you are dealing with. which will help in keeping things in perspective. My biggest complaint is unless you come to north florida to help build me one I will just have to stick to being jealous over your nice shop/garage.

Blue RidgeParkway
Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop
BillD wrote:

it's loft in this part of the county. So please don't let a single word define the strength or lack there-of. Semantics..........

BillD wrote:

I'd be surprised to see any rodents in there unless they ate up through the poles, but then, there's no openings into the lower level area, steel covers everything - EVERYTHING. There are no openings for anything to get in save for door openings, etc.

Insulation - I use kraft as I can staple it in place, I'm putting plastic on after the insulation, then the sheetrock or whatever.

I didn't. I asked you for those specs and even posted a gambrel storage-in-truss diagram and pointed out where you'd find the information. You didn't share that information here even though you expressed concern on the loading of finishing your loft space in the original post here, so I let your posts on your own forum where you said that the truss diagram stated DL max of 10psf for the loft area your photo site pictures themselves. I provided links on the issues. you loose poly'd over poles and girts no thermal break then finished the interior with steel below and now going to use kraft faced household insulation above. you said you wanted to know how it was properly done and concerned about doing it right the first time. pointed you to the right information, can't make you get legible copies of your truss diagrams, call your engineer, understand why double vapor barriers are bad or read a link.

good luck with your project.

bsum1
Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

Bill, nice summary and your dealing someone that has a virtual engineer's degree from Google University.

JLMCDANIEL
Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

Bill the only problem I can foresee is that the roof is not insulated. Condensation can be a real problem with steel roofs and it would then drip down on the insulated ceiling or run down into the walls. However having a well sealed concrete floor may help cut that down.
My barn doesn't have an upstairs room either, it has a hay loft.
Jack

Blue RidgeParkway
Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop
JLMCDANIEL wrote:

Bill the only problem I can foresee is that the roof is not insulated. Condensation can be a real problem with steel roofs and it would then drip down on the insulated ceiling or run down into the walls. However having a well sealed concrete floor may help cut that down.
My barn doesn't have an upstairs room either, it has a hay loft.
Jack

or ROT or POP THE TRUSSES

Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

We deal with the google experts on the amcforum.com
Real world experience counts more........... and those with track experience typically blow away those who only read about building fast cars. Nothing beats your time slip. And I'll pit my pre 1985 auto experience against anyone. I was simply the best there was in this state.

OK, so I come for opinions on finishing the "loft" (fine, call it the upstairs or second story if that feels better) and I get told how poorly the building was made on the lower level and how that was done all wrong as far as walls and insulation (based on pdf files.
Nope. Sorry - that may be by-the-book from companies, What is in mine, well, that's standard building practice - how it's really done in the field on a wood frame pole building. I've never seen a wood pole building used for garage, shop or business done differently than how that lower or main level was done on mine. As an ex-farmer, I've been in a few "pole buildings" and won't apologise for how the lower level of my building was made. Insulation does not get put over the posts around these parts. The insulation goes between, then a vapor barrier, then the steel inside. I've yet to see insulation also put over the posts/poles on a wood building in this state. I guess I liken it to a wood framed house built of 2/4's. Do you insulate the studs, too? No, vapor barrier, then sheetrock. Houses 20 years old have nothing but cheap plywood or fiberboard material on the outside, the stud, then sheetrock inside and insulation is put BETWEEN the studs - the studs themselves are only 3.5" wide and are not insulatecd.
Even the metal shop building I worked in for many years while I was a mechanic - all steel construction, was insulated between the steel frame members, they were exposed. There was a thin piece of insulation between the frame and outer walls, but then that was STEEL frame and that conducts the heat energy much more effeciently than 6" wood posts. So I figure this is insulated better than any house around here. :D

I'm not a building engineer, but here's my experience:
I've held a maintenance electricians license in the city of Ankeny.
I was in charge of all buildings and grounds and related projects at On With Life while I was "systems and facilities manager" under the president/ceo of OWL. I worked with the construction companies on the punch lists and any issues during construction.
I designed and tested the computers used in the control systems sold by Compressor Controls Corp. (also in charge of network and building security)
When I was between jobs, I passed the State of Iowa building "maintenance engineer" test with a 90% (however was not selected which was really ok, I guess)
I've worked as an electrician's assistant.
1975 state champion Plymouth Troubleshooting contest, set record for fastest time in the practical part, highest written score on the written exam. 14th place in nationals. Was offered, and turned down, job as service manager at Iowa's largest AMC/Jeep/Chrysler dealership of that time.

I pick things up quickly. I'm a visual learner and once I see something, I'm pretty much there.

In this building project like any other, there are at times comprimises in order to simply get done and be within budget. Although we'd recently sold a very solid buisiness so had a little cash to work with (a buisness which we took from nothing up to the 2nd highest grossing quilt store in central Iowa in under 3 years, and which in less than the first year, blew away the PO's projections for us) taxes, etc. took a fair chunk and we wanted some of that for retirement. I got only so much of it to work with.
The building was drawn and designed by me in very rough form (dimensions, shape, concepts) and had to stay within county limits on height, etc. I wanted a shop/garage, Barbara wanted a barn. So I drew her a barn I could use.
The final design was done by a Pella firm who specs and puts up many dozens of buildings each year and was built by one of their 4 or 5 crews - a crew I asked for specifically due to their reputation. The trusses were specced by the buisiness in Pella based on my wanting a wood working shop upstairs, finished and heated, with my power tools up there. Even though it's the cheap Craftsman stuff, it does ok for my piddling. I'm no Norm Abram, I don't have 27 routers and a $2,000 table saw. Mine was $99.95.
The builders themselves are an Amish crew with great pride in their work, they don't cheat, lie, steal, smoke or drink on the job (if ever!) or cut corners. The punch list, such as it were, consisted of one single item, which they resolved in 5 minutes before they even left the site.

Now if there are true problems, yeah, sure, I'd want to know..... but based on experience. See, at work, in fact, each job, me with no certificates on the wall am the one doing the jobs of the certified engineers. I've worked with Microsoft, Novell and Cisco certified administrators and engineers, and they seem to come to ME to get the job done........ so I value experience more than paper.

Anyone who can say "I've seen that before, and we've seen where it leads to this or that" I'm all ears. I do appreciate advice and opinions and that is what I came here for, but I value real-world experiences most, that's why I didn't ask in a car forum or a quilting forum..........

However, when someone comes in to ask us about an engine problem, we try to shy away from "who did that awful paint job".

Sorry for the rant! It's been a BAD couple weeks, nationally, job-wise, and I've been a week with a BAD headcold in the sinuses and throat.............. and my head hurts.

(and I must have missed where it said that a double vapor barrier was a bad thing......)

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