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havanagranite
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
havanagranite
Carpentershop wrote:

Yes, the test continues to expand. We have been loaned a very accurate flow meter from one of our researchers. With that instrument, we can begin to vary the ACH level to determine how that affects the Radon levels. We are being loaned more equipment from a instrument manufacture that can measure both Radon and radiation levels, a total of ten units for the next four months. After the tests on individual countertops are completed, those tops are to be chopped into samples and submitted to the various researchers, something like 8 to 10 currently working with us.

We already know that 18 square feet will put the room at between 2 and 3 pCi/L with a continuously open door. That should be more than 1 ACH. There is absolutely no question that some granites are capable of adding dangerous levels of Radon to homes.

Data from our past kitchen jobs puts the average small kitchen countertop to floor space ratio between 56 and 36%, and the average large kitchen between 36 and 18%, which is why we chose 18 square feet and 36 square feet as our initial test tops.

DIfferent types of granite will be tried as well, we have made a deal for five slabs of different types of granite.

What would be the purpose of chosing a random slab? Why waste resouces testing granite that doesn't need testing. Better to document those slabs that are more likely to cause high Radon levels so that people get them out of their homes or better yet, avoid buying them in the first place.

Keep in mind that we are retesting stones that the experts, all at PhD. level professorships, have found to produce high Radon levels in lab tests. One of them Dr. Steck, recently passed along a media contact to add to the info in a news story. In our email group, Steck said he tested some of the same stone that the MIA tested, but in his tests he found much higher Radon levels than they admitted. Steck also hammered the MIA on the Radon list server for claiming AARST support for their test results and protocols. He called their studies done to date confusing and incomplete and complained that they weren't answering his "extensive" list of questions he submitted to try to "make sense" of their study.

Keep in mind that Steck is the AARST committee leader charged with reviewing the MIA study and protocols, yet they demanded he keep part of the information confidential, even from other committee members.

Further more, the MIA continues to claim that their recent study found no dangerous stones but their own study said that 18 of the samples had a hazard index of six, which under European law would prevent these stones from being installed in homes or businessess. The industry depends on the sheer volume of information in the 60 page report to keep people from reading or understanding the conclusions.

Another point on the study is the length. Most studies are five to six pages, with all details present to allow the test to be redone by their peers. All statements are footnoted with supporting studies. Not so with the MIA study.

Look, I appreciate skepticism, but unreasonable skepticism has aided and abetted the stone industry in their supression of this information for a decade and a half. I also understand how confusing all the units and science are but it is time to demand those supporting the stone industry to begin back up their claims instead of doing personal attacks on those researching the problems.

The problem is that the solid surface alliance mainly does personal attacks against anyone who disagrees with them. they deal with a bunch of sensationalism, they take a few stones and try to make it sound like all stones are very dangerous. you won't hear me say there aren't any stones out there that have a higher radiation level but that isn't the majority and it isn't the more common stones. but that isn't what you hear from the solid surface alliance. why its because if you invistigate you will find that the money behind them comes from the makers of corian which is low and behold dupont and other big manufactures with deep pockets. and the only reason to attack granite is simply because of the bottom line which is that granite is continuing to get cheaper to mine and cheaper to work which is making it have a greater access to the majority of the mass population. which means that it is cutting into the area that corian, formica and others who produce different solid surface counter tops area and they don't like it. why else would it be called solid surface alliance???? if it was all about truth about granite why wouldn't it be some green peace group going at them??? interesting huh

Carpentershop
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Carpentershop

Havanagranite,
so my bringing up the untruths you continue to tell is a personal attack? Out of all the info I put into that post, all you could come up with was to repeat that there is big money behind me?

You also quote me as writing: " There is absolutely no question that some granites are capable of adding dangerous levels of Radon to homes." Then claim I say "all" stone is dangerous? What you are doing can be called the "straw man argument", setting up a ridiculous statement then knocking it down. Or it can be called "begging the question". You start off with an untrue statement, then claim it proves your argument. It only wins an argument in a fools mind.

And before you start to "invistigate", you might want to learn how to spell the word.

But, for the sake of argument, let's assume you are sincire in your claims that Dupont is funding this. Why would they since they sell their own brand of granite?

And Silestone initially funded Build Clean, which is a green organization, despite their being one of the largest granite importers in North America. They had to find out the truth to protect their company.

Now, Havana granite. You've made claims that there is big money behind us. Please provide proof of that or all will know you for what you are.

Now, I doubt if few reasonable men can read all of this, consider the amount of information and the lack of the granite industries ability to counter the facts, and not come to the conclusion where the truth is. As you can see, having a civil discussion on this topic is near impossible with someone like Havanagranite, and should consider why they don't just stick to the facts. I can tell you why, this is how they get these discussion shut down, by making them vicious until the moderator shuts it down.

Again, this is the only effective tactic they have since the facts are completely against them.[/COLOR]

Carpentershop
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Carpentershop

Jack,
There is a much longer post currently awaiting moderation that answers your questions and addresses the points that others brought up.

goldhiller
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
goldhiller
Carpentershop wrote:

And before you start to "invistigate", you might want to learn how to spell the word.

But, for the sake of argument, let's assume you are sincire in your claims that Dupont is funding this.

Now that's funny, right there. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Spelling and/or typo errors are valid subjects for criticism? Please.

Your quiver must truly be empty if you need to resort to that.

Pray tell......are you the newly designated grammar & spelling cop of the forum..... or just exceedingly prone to being petty by nature?

havanagranite
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
havanagranite

http://www.marble-institute.com/industryresources/granite_radoninfo.cfm

who are your main advertisers? that would be manufacturers of solid surface. money through ads is still funding no matter how you try to label it, or under which shell on the table you put it. its still the same. if its only about the "truth" then why does it also seem to be an agenda to push solid surface and not to push the "safer" granites?

havanagranite
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
havanagranite

and if you want to make issues about proper spelling then so be it. and interesting that you don't see that as personal attacks. which would be trying to dismiss what a person has to say based on information that has nothing to do with the topic.

Carpentershop
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Carpentershop

Goldhiller,

There is a world of difference between writing a paragraph and not proofreading it and writing twenty paragraphs and making a mistake.

I take your post as support for those that wish to continue to sell a dangerous product. I'd like to hear about the thought process that goes into such as decision.

Havanagranite,

You do like digging the hole deeper, don't you? We have no advertisers. Never have.

As to pushing the safer granites, first thing is to remove the dangerous ones, something that your industry has been fighting with tooth and nail. And the facts are very simple, there are few "safe" granites as almost all have some amount of radiation present. Couple that fact with the consensus of the vast majority of scientists that there are no safe levels of radiation, and you have an inescapable conclusion. You could argue that the risks are small, looks like 3 in 10,000, but you can't argue that there is no risk.

And you wrote "which would be trying to dismiss what a person has to say based on information that has nothing to do with the topic."

Then logically who pays for what also has nothing to do with the topic. But you seem convinced that it does. So then will you ask the MIA to return all funding from the stone industry?

Now, I called you out on your claims of the solid surface industry supporting our effort. Now I am calling you out to provide links to these "advertisers" you claim are supporting the testing effort. This ought to be very simple if you actually have any info. If not, please explain why anyone should bother reading your replies?

You won't because you can't, so I'll just ignore you from now on.

Jack
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Jack

Carpentershop,
First let me state that I have no interests in the granite industries or the solid surface industries. I could care less which one makes money and which one doesn’t. After reviewing your posts, you web site, as well as other’s comments I would like to post my opinion based on my understanding of what has been presented so far.
I have not read the granite industries data because it was not presented here, so I can’t opine on their data or conclusions. I understand there is a great deal of passion on both sides but I’m not particularly swayed by passion alone.

First some facts and perceived facts. It is a fact that there is an amount of radiation in granite as well as just about anything else that comes out of the ground. I believe both sides concede that point . Granite is a solid nonporous material so all off gassing would have to come from the surface and not increased or decreased by the thickness. I believe I also read that the half life of Radon gas is 3.8 days. Radon gas is heavier than air.

First in my opinion, your comment linking granite to terrorism borders on libel of both a family name and an industry and seriously diminishes your credibility. Such wild and unsubstantiated claims are generally made by people that have to rely on scare tactics rather than facts or evidence to back their claims. The Ben Laden family is a large one involved in mining, construction, transportation and many other enterprises. There is only one known terrorist named Ben Laden , Osama . Your implication is as ridiculous as implying that anyone named Booth or Oswald is tied to assassinations or whose name is Arnold is a traitor. Are airlines and plane manufacturers tied to terrorism because that is what was used to bring down the Twin Towers?

I have no problem with your assumptions as to the ratio of the slab size to the room size. I believe it is well reasoned and reasonable.

You have admitted that you chose a slab containing a high radioactive reading, I have no problem with that because you are trying to show worst case scenario. I do have a problem if you imply that the results represent the norm or an average or that it represents a standard for all granite.

I do however have a problem with the environment that you have established for the test. You have stated that the room has an .02 ACH (Air Change per Hour) . On a 2000 SF. home with 8 feet ceilings that would be 320 CFH . The ASHRAE standard 62-1989 has become a world wide baseline and often quoted by the EPA as the standard. That standard is 15 CFM per person or 900 CFH which is nearly 3 times what you are providing and the margin increases by multiples of 3 for each additional person. The margin does decrease if the house is larger and increase if the house is smaller.

If a house had an .02 ACH during the heating season, you would not have to worry about dying from radon caused lung cancer because you would have already died from carbon monoxide poisoning due to poor combustion and lack of sufficient air to proper provide draft in chimneys and flues. If 2 people were placed in the test room they would be dead of suffocation in a matter of days due to the high concentration of CO2. The environment also simulates no air movement which would be present under normal circumstances, moving the gas from room to room and some eventually out a window or door. A sealed test tube is not a real world environment. You had stated “We already know that 18 square feet will put the room at between 2 and 3 pCi/L with a continuously open door” which I believe is less than the EPA acceptable level. Of course most people would like for the level to be zero.

Although I find your experiment interesting and thought provoking , it appears to me that it provokes more sensationalism than true relevance. If you expand your experiments to more closely match real world conditions, the results will be more plausible.
Jack

goldhiller
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
goldhiller
Carpentershop wrote:

Goldhiller,
There is a world of difference between writing a paragraph and not proofreading it and writing twenty paragraphs and making a mistake.

Hmmmmmmm. I guess that answers my question; your quiver is/was empty and as I suspected...your own "rules" don't apply to you (in your mind)....only to others. Do you work for the goverment? You'd fit right in....making self-serving loopholes for yourself to slip through. (OMG. I ended a sentence with a preposition. 30 lashes for me.)

In case you're unaware - This is a "chat/help/info" forum, not an english composition class.

Carpentershop wrote:

I take your post as support for those that wish to continue to sell a dangerous product. I'd like to hear about the thought process that goes into such as decision. .

You can "take" my comments about your infantile jab at HG anyway you like. That jab told me quite a bit about your character (lack of it), as has your response. (An apology was is in order, but instead you decided to carve out a loophole for your own spelling mistake.) My comments concerning all of the above, say nothing about my thoughts concerning the original subject matter of this thread. The fact that you presume they do....affirms what I already think about you at this point.

Ball's in your court.

canuk
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
canuk

Ya know .... Carpentershop

After visiting the link you provided ..... which is YOUR own website ..... it's clear you are simply here for a personal agenda.

It seems you don't have much of a following or support from people within your industry judging by the activity and number of folks participating on YOUR forum.
The majority of the posts are made by you .... Al Gerhart and Admin.

It's easy to conclude you decide to stalk higher profile forums ..... such as this ....
either to promote YOUR own website .... or .... use as a sounding board for your views .... or .... perhaps both.

Either way .... it seems you are all about grandstanding.

I for one take exception to those trivial attacks you have taken toward havanagranite and have dismissed all that you post ..... considering more as rants .

When you start trivial personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with your views .... your credibility is lost.

Besides .... this forum already has a resident lunatic and doesn't need another.

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