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havanagranite
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
havanagranite
Carpentershop wrote:

Just because you tested a number of granite installation doesn't mean you tested correctly or that you tested a granite of concern. No one knows if you tested the hot spots on the granite, not likely since you said you didn't measure for radioactivity first.

Most inexpensive granites, most not all, are fairly low level Radon emanation. The problem has always lay with the exceptions to that rule and the exotic granites.

If this was a non issue, neither the CRCPD (state radiation officials) nor AARST (radon scientists) would have committees seting maximum allowable radiation/radon levels for stones and measurement protocols. ANSI and ASME are also looking into the controversy for their organizations.

On the radon issue, we have a full scale radon test going currently, over 10 pCi/L so far from only 18square feet of granite in a 96 square foot room. That is like smoking 1 1/2 packs a day,

http://forum.solidsurfacealliance.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=98ST

We have a lot of info on the topics available.

forum.solidsurfacealliance.org

solidsurfacealliance.org/blog

solidsurfacealliance.org

anyone from the solid surface alliance is hardly what you would call with out bias. they have been throwing out alligations of all sorts at granite even though it has been found without basis. sanitary issues and bacteria growth are the old ones and now they have graduated to radon. and I'm not talking about the solid surface alliance alone I'm talking about the money behind it. who is their funding from and that says it all.

Carpentershop
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Carpentershop

Sunthas,

Good question.

Concrete is the floor, covered by epoxy floor coating, producing .775 pCi/L of Radon including the normal background levels.

We have CO2 graphs on the thread. The ACH is .02 if I remember right. We have a Telair CO2 digital meter hooked up to a HOBO data logger that downloads to our laptop. We had the loan of a new Femto teck CRM, just sent it back, but another company is loaning us ten electrets, E-Perms, and a reader. We still have one Femto Tech CRM that wasn't calibrated this year, but it agreed with the brand new one that was calibrated before they loaned it to us.

The topic is quite confusing. We had the site rated by a site service and they told us it would take an undergraduate level education to follow the site. No way around it if you publish a complete report unless you dumb it down, then the experts don't like it.

The final readings on the Four Seasons was 36 square feet providing up to 30 pCi/L of Radon. The most troubling finding was that some of the less radioactive stone put off the most Radon.

Havana granite,

The only funding we ever recieved was about $1,500 from the initial group of fabricators, most of which also fabricate and sell granite as I do. That was used to purchase meters, some is still in the bank.

Now pay attention to this. Not one single penny has been provided by the solid surface industry so far besides the fabricators in the beginning. I wish it was otherwise, but the countertop industry is too interconnected these days, they can't afford to piss off some of their customers that sell a lot of stone.

All our work is being done by volunteer scientists and researchers, all that operate 100% independently. We do get some of data, off the record until they publish their results. All we do for them is provide hot samples, sometimes a bit of equipment, and keep the various scientist connected through our email group. Our own Radon testing is done with loaned equipment from these same researchers. Not many labs can handle slabs, so our shop is the only way to test their lab results. We need no funding at this point. The stone industry does hire consultants and us currently using one of the largest big tobacco industry PR firms, Cohne & Wolfe.

I see you don't care to address my points, instead depend on attacking with fabricated claims of bias. By the way, are you claiming you aren't biased?

Incidently, I know the current MIA president personally, we both sit on the ASME committee looking at granite risks. I was also invited by AARST to organize a panel discussion on the granite controversy for the next AARST/CRCPD convention, recomending the other experts for the panel discussion, working on the abstract, and will be one of the five panelists. This isn't a done deal yet, but the Chair of the convention is pushing for this to happen.

What else you got, Havana granite?

Carpentershop
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Carpentershop

Sunthas,

I didn't answer all of your questions, sorry.

The walls and ceiling are lined with 1/4' melamine covered particle board (both sides).

The Radon room is in a tilt up concrete building, slab floor, 20 foot ceilings, 10,000 square feet, with three leaky overhead doors. As I said, we tested for background levels prior to adding the granite. I have an email group with most of the leading researchers in the Radon industry providing advice and guidance. We also have a radio chemist, an Uranim geologist, a Geophysicist, an Industrial Hygienist, a Physicist, several Radon lab owners and mitigators. Four of them are PhD level professors at universities or state health departments.

Jack
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Jack
Carpentershop wrote:

Sunthas,

I didn't answer all of your questions, sorry.

The walls and ceiling are lined with 1/4' melamine covered particle board (both sides).

The Radon room is in a tilt up concrete building, slab floor, 20 foot ceilings, 10,000 square feet, with three leaky overhead doors. As I said, we tested for background levels prior to adding the granite. I have an email group with most of the leading researchers in the Radon industry providing advice and guidance. We also have a radio chemist, an Uranim geologist, a Geophysicist, an Industrial Hygienist, a Physicist, several Radon lab owners and mitigators. Four of them are PhD level professors at universities or state health departments.

You said the radon room is in a large building with leaky doors. How big is the radon room, how is it constructed and of what, and is it a closed room?
Jack

Jack
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Jack

By the way I ask those questions not because I am disputing or affirming your data but because I don't like ambiguous or misleading facts tied to test data.
Jack

Carpentershop
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Carpentershop

Jack,

All of that info is public as well as the data from the testing. I posted the link here in a previous message but here it is again.

http://forum.solidsurfacealliance.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=98

Like I said earlier, the room is built with 1/4" melamine. Nothing that give off Radon but if it did it would show up in the background Radon readinf of .775 pCi/L. Go look at the pictures of the darned thing.

As for if it is an open room, I also gave the ACH reading, .02 ACH, which would tell you it is a closed room. Other researchers have found similar ACH levels in Condo's, but that is tighter than the average home (.5 to .1 ach).

Nice to hear that you don't like misleading information posted. How about having a talk with those that have been fighting the testing effort like Havanagranite? Lots of people respond despite knowing nothing about the facts, how misleading are their posts?

Jack
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Jack
Carpentershop wrote:

Jack,

All of that info is public as well as the data from the testing. I posted the link here in a previous message but here it is again.

http://forum.solidsurfacealliance.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=98

Like I said earlier, the room is built with 1/4" melamine. Nothing that give off Radon but if it did it would show up in the background Radon readinf of .775 pCi/L. Go look at the pictures of the darned thing.

As for if it is an open room, I also gave the ACH reading, .02 ACH, which would tell you it is a closed room. Other researchers have found similar ACH levels in Condo's, but that is tighter than the average home (.5 to .1 ach).

Nice to hear that you don't like misleading information posted. How about having a talk with those that have been fighting the testing effort like Havanagranite? Lots of people respond despite knowing nothing about the facts, how misleading are their posts?

OK, results are interesting, is the test going to be expanded to testing in more normal conditions, like a higher ACH which or effect of doors opening and closing, air movement throughout a home by force air heat or AC, or with different types of granite? Was the piece of granite used randomly selected?
Jack

Carpentershop
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Carpentershop

Yes, the test continues to expand. We have been loaned a very accurate flow meter from one of our researchers. With that instrument, we can begin to vary the ACH level to determine how that affects the Radon levels. We are being loaned more equipment from a instrument manufacture that can measure both Radon and radiation levels, a total of ten units for the next four months. After the tests on individual countertops are completed, those tops are to be chopped into samples and submitted to the various researchers, something like 8 to 10 currently working with us.

We already know that 18 square feet will put the room at between 2 and 3 pCi/L with a continuously open door. That should be more than 1 ACH. There is absolutely no question that some granites are capable of adding dangerous levels of Radon to homes.

Data from our past kitchen jobs puts the average small kitchen countertop to floor space ratio between 56 and 36%, and the average large kitchen between 36 and 18%, which is why we chose 18 square feet and 36 square feet as our initial test tops.

DIfferent types of granite will be tried as well, we have made a deal for five slabs of different types of granite.

What would be the purpose of chosing a random slab? Why waste resouces testing granite that doesn't need testing. Better to document those slabs that are more likely to cause high Radon levels so that people get them out of their homes or better yet, avoid buying them in the first place.

Keep in mind that we are retesting stones that the experts, all at PhD. level professorships, have found to produce high Radon levels in lab tests. One of them Dr. Steck, recently passed along a media contact to add to the info in a news story. In our email group, Steck said he tested some of the same stone that the MIA tested, but in his tests he found much higher Radon levels than they admitted. Steck also hammered the MIA on the Radon list server for claiming AARST support for their test results and protocols. He called their studies done to date confusing and incomplete and complained that they weren't answering his "extensive" list of questions he submitted to try to "make sense" of their study.

Keep in mind that Steck is the AARST committee leader charged with reviewing the MIA study and protocols, yet they demanded he keep part of the information confidential, even from other committee members.

Further more, the MIA continues to claim that their recent study found no dangerous stones but their own study said that 18 of the samples had a hazard index of six, which under European law would prevent these stones from being installed in homes or businessess. The industry depends on the sheer volume of information in the 60 page report to keep people from reading or understanding the conclusions.

Another point on the study is the length. Most studies are five to six pages, with all details present to allow the test to be redone by their peers. All statements are footnoted with supporting studies. Not so with the MIA study.

Look, I appreciate skepticism, but unreasonable skepticism has aided and abetted the stone industry in their supression of this information for a decade and a half. I also understand how confusing all the units and science are but it is time to demand those supporting the stone industry to begin back up their claims instead of doing personal attacks on those researching the problems.

Jack
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
Jack

A Few more questions please. Will you be testing other materials like soap stone or concrete counter tops? Do solid surface materials contain stone? If they do, are they also being tested?
Jack

bsum1
Re: Radon in Granite Countertops
bsum1

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