Home>Discussions>INSULATION & HVAC>Radiant heat stapled to subfloor
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bp21901
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor
kentvw wrote:

I wish I had kept a file of your classic posts of hate from years ago...........

Hey Kent....My all time favorite (so far) was the post on the old board by the "brother" telling us of her untimely demise while directing recovery efforts for Katrina victims while a special Oprah episode was documenting it all. Oprah's film crew had to be shoo'ed out of the way while she gave directions from the stretcher that was carrying her to the hospital for "the last scene" (or some such nonsense). It was the hardest I have ever laughed at an online posting.

Although I did save it at the time, it was on a computer that has since croaked. There is a good chance that it was saved on some backup zip drive (remember them!!) but recovering it would take more effort than its worth! The memory of it all is enough for me!! :D

Blue RidgeParkway
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor
sabo4545 wrote:

Hopefully this will lay this issue to rest. This is directly from the Onix installation manual (which it sounds like the original poster has Onix and not Pex because it is a direct staple up and did not use the heat transfer plates).

You can view the entire installation manual at

http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/OnixInstallationManual.pdf

Frame Floors
Introduction
Of all the radiant applications, frame
floors offer the most installation flexibility.
Over 80% of all residential radiant
projects have at least one form of a
frame installation. Of these, the
Staple-Up™ application is the most
common.
Frame floor projects allow for easy
installation of a radiant system, for
new construction or renovation. Even
though some installation details vary
from application to application, basic
design considerations remain the same.
The most important goal is to make
sure the Onix is in direct contact with
the subfloor.
The second most important detail for a
Staple-Up™ application is to properly
install foil-faced batt insulation below
the tubing. If a non-foil-faced insulation
is used, the system may operate
with a 25% loss of maximum heat
output and some (smaller) loss of efficiency.
Other insulation can be used
instead of a fiberglass batt, however,
certain cautions need to be observed.
1. Tight seal. One of the largest areas
of heat loss with any underfloor
application is convective loss
through the band joists and other
perimeter areas. The tighter the
joist cavity, the better the system
will perform.
2. Foil Face. The foil on the
insulation will ensure most of the
heat and energy coming from the
tubing is reflected up to the subfloor
where it is distributed. The
foil also spreads the heat out over
the subfloor. This in turn reduces
what has been called thermal striping.
3. Air Gap. A 2"–4" air gap is necessary
between the tubing and the
insulation. This air gap helps
increase the effective R-value of
the insulation while fully optimizing
the ability of the foil insulation.
The main goal is to keep the tubing
from coming into contact with the
insulation. If contact is made, energy
is no longer reflected upwards,
but rather, is conducted downward.
This can reduce the effective heating
of the floor by 10% to 20%,
depending on the load conditions
and thickness of insulation.
4. R-Value. As a rule of thumb, an RValue
of at least 4 times higher
than the floor is desired. For most
indoor conditions, an R-13, or a
3-1/2" batt should be used. When
installing over an unheated area,
exposed area or crawlspace, a
minimum R-19 or 6" batt should
be used.
Design Parameters
With any new or renovation project, it

See Mike? when they're found out and completly WRONG they can't admit it, and start off topic attacks and smears. No wonder of canuk's over 2,000 posts less than a third are on topic and more than half are nasty rants. it is no wonder that 95 percent of those that join NEVER RETURN to this site.

SO SAD for POOR BEV.

canuk
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/Onix...tionManual.pdf

Check out page 30 .... it would seem to illustrate an alternative system for under floor application where the insulation is in direct contact with the Onix.

Oh ..... and page 6 has some interesting reading.

Blue RidgeParkway
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor
canuk wrote:

http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/Onix...tionManual.pdf

Check out page 30 .... it would seem to illustrate an alternative system for under floor application where the insulation is in direct contact with the Onix.

Oh ..... and page 6 has some interesting reading.

No that's not true on page 30 of the document (page 32 of 84 of the pdf file). the middle of the page diagram is for a SANDWICH OVER SLAB installation not what Bev is doing.

This is a working link: http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/OnixInstallationManual.pdf

The lower diagram on that same page is for an under a framed floor installation which is not stapled up the sub floor was torn out to install it from above and it has a gap between the insulation and the onyx and the onyx is supported by a chicken wire sling to the subfloor.

your argument is not supported. why would you endeavor to have bev's system loose 25% or more of its efficiency, especially after going to the expense and time to insulate - malicious?

canuk
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor
Blue RidgeParkway wrote:

No that's not true on page 30 of the document (page 32 of 84 of the pdf file). the middle of the page diagram is for a SANDWICH OVER SLAB installation not what Bev is doing.

This is a working link: http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/OnixInstallationManual.pdf

The lower diagram on that same page is for an under a framed floor installation which is not stapled up the sub floor was torn out to install it from above and it has a gap between the insulation and the onyx and the onyx is supported by a chicken wire sling to the subfloor.

your argument is not supported. why would you endeavor to have bev's system loose 25% or more of its efficiency, especially after going to the expense and time to insulate - malicious?

This link Mike provided should work

Look at page 30 again ..... "Other Frame Floor Techniques"
You will see the description and NO it's not for a SANDWICH OVER SLAB installation .

.... and speaking of malicious ..... [COLOR=black]dear old Blue[/COLOR]

canuk
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

Oh and don't forget to read page 6.

Also toward the bottom of page 2

Quote:

PLEASE NOTE:

This manual only covers installation of Watts Radiant’s
Onix hose, and should not be used for the installation of
our cross-linked polyethylene products, RadiantPEX® and WaterPEX®.

JLMCDANIEL
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

Rather than all these petty arguments wouldn't it make more sense to ask the OP to tell us if they have PEX or Onix (at least a description) and if it is just tubing stapled to the sub-floor or if they have transfer plates stapled to the sub-floor? Quoting the installation instructions for one brand amd ignoring others when we don't know what they have is a futile waste of time.
Jack

canuk
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor
JLMCDANIEL wrote:

Rather than all these petty arguments wouldn't it make more sense to ask the OP to tell us if they have PEX or Onix (at least a description) and if it is just tubing stapled to the sub-floor or if they have transfer plates stapled to the sub-floor? Quoting the installation instructions for one brand amd ignoring others when we don't know what they have is a futile waste of time.
Jack

Agree with you .

Blue RidgeParkway
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

Jack,

yep and i did so back on #3 & 5 and pointed out nowhere did the OP say, nor does her post imply PEX. not to mention her post is quite clear it was a staple up to the subfloor and she mentions joists and insulating below. She makes no mention of needing or having diffuser plates or clips. IT ALSO COULD BE STAPLE UP ELECTRIC RADIANT it MAY NOT EVEN BE AN HYDRONIC HEAT SYSTEM, re-read the original post! unlike canuk and Nashua Tech read the post completely and didn't ASSUME ANYTHING.

canuk wrote:

This link Mike provided should work

Look at page 30 again ..... "Other Frame Floor Techniques"
You will see the description and NO it's not for a SANDWICH OVER SLAB installation .

.... and speaking of malicious ..... [COLOR=black]dear old Blue[/COLOR]

and canuk still can't read page 30 so arguing with him is futile. cuz that first diagram IS an OVER THE SLAB install and that's the ONLY diagram on that page that has any insulation contact to the onyx IS A SANDWICH INSTALL and it (rigid board insulation) is being used to SUPPORT the onyx and it IS a framed over slab SANDWICH install being diagramed in that illustration not a staple up retrofit to a framed floor. the canuk can't realize the first column of pg 30 is continuing the third column from page 29 and that the first diagram on pg 30 the only one showing any insulation contact on the bottom of the onyx but NOT the sides IS A SANDWICH INSTALL on joists over slab he just has to LOOK AT IT AND READ THE SECTION OF THE MANUAL IT PERTAINS TO. radiant under frame floor either of the three types same thing difference is the minimum recommended clearance.

canuk
Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor
Blue RidgeParkway wrote:

yep and i did so back on #3 & 5 and pointed out nowhere did the OP say, nor does her post imply PEX. not to mention her post is quite clear it was a staple up to the subfloor and she mentions joists and insulating below. She makes no mention of needing or having diffuser plates or clips. IT ALSO COULD BE STAPLE UP ELECTRIC RADIANT it MAY NOT EVEN BE AN HYDRONIC HEAT SYSTEM, re-read the original post!

and canuk still can't read page 30 so arguing with him is futile. cuz that first diagram IS an OVER THE SLAB install and that's the ONLY one that has board insulation near the onyx and it is being used to SUPPORT the onyx and it IS a sandwich install not a staple up retrofit to a framed floor. radiant under frame floor either of the three types same thing difference is the minimum recommended clearance.

Sad Blue.
Not the Adobe page 30 rather the actual page 30 of the manual..... they are clearly labeled on the bottom of each page.

But if you like ... Sad Blue .... then go to Adobe page 32. .... or you can keep deflecting.

This thread has been lost and gone beyond being civil .....besides I'm not going further any more discussion with you and your insults and continued attempts to discredit folks..... I've said before and will say it again .... there's no reasoning with you ..... you're unreasonable.

There's no need to quibble about some manufacturers's carfefully worded manual for DIY installation by their marketing department. In almost every case they will include careful wording such as ..... may not perform .... or could result ... may or may not happen .... just to cover their butts.
So ... yes .... follow the manufacturers outlined proceedure.

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