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even
Poor roof installation
even

We had our roof replaced after hail damage. It took 8 days to complete the job because we were in a rain system. After they were done we had several issues some cosmetics, some fraudulent, and some quality. They left the old tar paper on and covered it with the newer underlayment product before putting on shingles. They failed to patch the decking where the hail penetrated through until we brought it to their attention. There are other spots that they may not have patched as well but we don't know. The roof seems sloppy (see picture), we have bubbling on the side of the valleys as well as from the bubble to the peak. We don't know if that is because they continued to work as it began to rain. Some of the shingles looks as though they didn't use an alignment guide. We had a leak around a fireplace vent which they fixed but which leaked again. Finally, we had another roofer out to put on gutters and they said we had the old drip guard even though the roofer had charged the insurance company to replace it. The roofer said it gets put on with the gutters. In addition the second roofer said we had a lot of foot traffic on the roof. This most likely is the number of men on the roof at one time and the amount of time it took them to finish the roof. So we decided to have the city out to inspect. They don't go on the roof but was able to see several code violations including failure to submit pictures of the ice and dam shield. We knew they installed a single row of this but not to the depth over porch areas and into living areas as we now know code requires. Now we have to decide what to do about this roof. It seems that to repair it is extensive and we might as well tear it off and start over but we want to be able to justify doing so. Removing and installing a drip edge after the fact is not the proper technique but is it acceptable. We haven't paid the first roofer. I feel the poor quality of the roof would affect the value of our $600,000 house. Does anyone have any advice for us. (attaching files was too difficult so not including)

dj1
Re: Poor roof installation
dj1

1. Have the second roofer write down all that's wrong with the roof, item by item. Some of your complaints are about things that are hidden from view, in which case, your only proof will be photos of the removed roof.

2. Keep the city inspector's copy with the above.

3. In California, and probably in your state as well, you need to contact the first roofer and let him remedy the situation to your full satisfaction before you pay him. You have to give him ONE SHOT for fixing the job. If he refuses to do that or play games (not showing up, for example), you will need to contact the State Contractors Board and file a complaint. Unlicensed? the state won't help you.

4. Read your Estimate/Bid/Proposal/Contract with the first roofer carefully, know where you are standing in case he demands to be paid. Make sure you understand what he proposed to do before he climbed up on the roof.

5. In some cases, folks can end up in court, so you want to secure as much evidence as you can.

6. Next time, try to be present while contractors work on your house. After all you were acting as a general contractor - don't be an absentee GC. Do you leave your child alone at the dentist's office while the dentist is drilling and pulling teeth? Well, a house is the same.

7. To upload photos, upload them at a host like photobucket and then give us the link.

A. Spruce
Re: Poor roof installation
A. Spruce

1 - Was the job permitted? The municipality doesn't usually inspect if it isn't, since they did and found code violations, then that is about all you should need, the roof failed inspection and the roofer has to bring it up to code - with all necessary permits in place.

2 - DO NOT pay the roofer until this is resolved. Make sure your insurance company doesn't pay them either until such time that this is resolved to your satisfaction. It should be noted that many states have lien laws, which means the contractor can lien your property until you pay him, regardless of resolution. You may need to consult an attorney to know your rights.

3 - Did the insurance company recommend the roofer, if so, make sure they know just how bad the work was so that they quit recommending this contractor.

4 - An attic inspection may be necessary to find penetration points that were not addressed by the contractor. Make sure you take pictures and document everything, you're going to need it if this escalates into a lawsuit/court action.

5 - You have to host images off site and link them here.

ordjen
Re: Poor roof installation
ordjen

A mechanics lien placed on a house will expire after a certain time, usually about two years. The contractor has to go to court to "force the lien". It sounds like he would have a hard time convincing a judge that he has performed the details of the contract. Your contract is probably over the dollar limits of a small claims court, so he has to get a lawyer and file suit, an expensive procedure if he loses.

While you are at it, DON"T pay him anything until he supplies you with a "waiver of lien" from the supply house that delivered the shingles. If he hasn't paid the supplier, the suppliers can go after you for the cost of the shingles and supplies. Unfortunately, they are often dropped at the site, so there is no doubt whose shingles are on your house!

llmotoll
Re: Poor roof installation
llmotoll

A Roofing contractor here.

Get the roofing material manufacture representative involved. He/she will know a good consultant in your area. Find one that is local so you don't have to pay for travel expenses and they are readily available.

Hire a roof consultant to inspect existing conditions. Expect to pay as much as $1,500 for a roof condition report. Pay them out of what you owe the installing contractor. They will help you navigate the situation. And they can be your GC to confirm things are done as they should be to meet the manufacture specifications and code.

llmotoll
Re: Poor roof installation
llmotoll

Oh, one more thing. The result of getting the manufacture representative & local roof consultant involved will put a lot of pressure on the contractor.
Roofing is a small world. By having those two looking over his shoulder that is the best sort of manipulation you can get. And it's cheep! he will not want his name forever tainted in the eyes of the consultant (future potential customer to him) and he will not want to loose his relationship with the material manufacture either.

This will put pressure on his future business. And that is priceless. Now it's no longer just about you. It's about his ability to operate. Now it's serious in his eyes. Anything you say he will likely dismiss, as I'm sure it is not the first time he has dealt with a disgruntled client.

even
Re: Poor roof installation
even

Thanks so much for all your input. I don't know why I am having difficulty navigating this web site compared to others I have subscribed to but responding to individual messages seems confusing as to where I should start typing.

First I would like to mention that rereading my post, it sounded as though the 2nd roofer said the drip guard goes on after the roof. Actually it was the first roofer and two roofing companies I had out since disagreed.

I do want to assure you that I was on site except for one morning during construction. Normally I take pictures, but because this was a good friend of my daughter-in-law and they both graduated from architectural school together, I trusted him. He did come out immediately the next morning to patch the roof where we had water coming into the house. It was assumed he would do the rest of the work and because of the relationship, we agreed. He did take out a permit with the Planning Department. We did not have a contract. The only person really supervising the job, was the foreman on the roof. They had another foreman who ran this crew who we only saw when he dropped off material. We were disappointed that we had to always point out problems that the contractor seemed to ignore.

We called the roofing manufacturer but they were of no help and said they had no one who would come out and tell us if the roof was installed properly. :(

In addition to problems with the install, their dumpster left rust on our driveway, the pallets damaged our cement, they used an automated ladder ? to carry the shingles to the roof which they position in my bushes and burned the holly leaves (I had to ask them to move it), our lead exhaust stacks look like they have taken a beating, when they removed the shingles, they scratched our siding and garage doors, and they left a huge rut in our lawn when they tried to back out their loaded dumpster (our driveway curves). The dumpster blocked 2 of our 3 garages for 8 days (the 3rd one stores our lawn equipment), during which time our cars were outside and we had 2 hail storms. One car had some dents.

We did ask him to fix the messy peaks and uneven edges as well as replace one area where the roof was malaligned. We told him we needed proper ice and dam shield over covered porch areas and into the living area but he replied that our house never had it before and it was ok so it should be fine now. We reminded him that it violates code. We also shared the code violation list from the City. He never came back and I think this constitutes giving him a second chance.

He never sent us a bill but did send one to the insurance company who issued us the check. We requested a copy of the bill and were surprised to find charges for the drip guard he didn't install as well as 4-6 sheets of plywood which we do not know if he used.

I will upload pictures to dropbox.

Thanks everyone.

dj1
Re: Poor roof installation
dj1

Quote: "First I would like to mention that rereading my post, it sounded as though the 2nd roofer said the drip guard goes on after the roof. Actually it was the first roofer and two roofing companies I had out since disagreed. "

The DRIP EDGE goes on the roof deck before the shingles. It's sole job is to divert water away from the fascia boards.

As to your multiple accusations about the inferior workmanship and other issues concerning the job itself, you better consult a real estate lawyer to see if you have a case. You can also complain, with all your evidence to your state board of contractors.

You were right about trying giving the 1st contractor a second chance to fix all deficiencies, and since he decided not to respond, you are free to contact other roofers for help.

As mentioned, don't pay the 1st roofer.

llmotoll
Re: Poor roof installation
llmotoll

***! no contract?!?
you should pay him at least 40-60% of the verbal agreement. He did after all do a lot of work and supplied material. You knew what you were getting into up front and you knew he was not a top notch roofing contractor and without the presence of a contract you have zero claim to anything against him legally.

and just for the record. This talk about the drip edge having to go on either first or last is kind of pointless. It can be done either way. Has zero impact on quality.

even
Re: Poor roof installation
even

llmotoll where was it that I said we knew what we were getting into and that we knew he wasn't a top notch roofer? You obviously missed the point that much of the roof has to be torn off to meet city code. Obviously, I would not pay for that kind of work even if he had to pay for the shingles he put on incorrectly.

And how would we know he was anything other than a top notch roofer? He has a very expensive, impressive trailer with his logo, beautiful artwork on his business cards. I did my due diligence and found nothing negative about him at BBB or Angie's List. Another architect vouched for him. One would have to be super suspicious to think he was anything but quality.

In addition, I forgot to mention that one of the roofers mentioned he had not used the proper number of nails on each shingle.

dj1
Re: Poor roof installation
dj1

Quote: "In addition, I forgot to mention that one of the roofers mentioned he had not used the proper number of nails on each shingle. "

The nailing requirements are right on the shingle wrappers, and not following these requirements will void the manufacturer's warranty. Besides, with less nails than required, your shingles will fly off the roof at much lower winds and gusts. Pretty grim situation.

Let's say the roofers used 3 nails per shingle piece instead of the required 4, there is no way to add nails now without lifting the shingles, in which process, more than 50% of the shingles will be trashed. Might as well tear the roof off and start from step 1.

If it were my house, I would do just that: remove the entire roof to the roof deck and re-do the job. Why accept a less than code compliant job?

As far as payment, let the first roofer try to collect. He will have no legs to stand on with all the evidence you have.

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