Home>Discussions>PLUMBING>pin hole leaks in copper pipe
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Moon Over My Hammy
Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe
JLMCDANIEL wrote:

I'm glad to know that on a farm anything goes. I'll have to notify the county building department to stop sending inspectors when work is done on my neighbors places and mine. I guess that means I won't have to buy anymore permits.
Jack

Pilot profile location is IDAHO you "JACK" are in OHIO. Shows how LITTLE you know or bother to find out about IDAHO. FARMS in Unincorporated areas with private water supplies the State has not legislated UPC minimum standards for plumbing or building standards for structures or residences on PRIVATE BUILDINGS on FARMS. They are excluded from STATE mandated minimum Building Code standards.:p

A. Spruce
Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe
Moon Over My Hammy wrote:

FARMS in Unincorporated areas with private water supplies the State has not legislated UPC minimum standards for plumbing or building standards for structures or residences on PRIVATE BUILDINGS on FARMS. They are excluded from any STATE mandated minimum Code standards.:p

Interesting! Where were you to tell the county this when we installed a well and replumbed our farm house 25 years ago? Oh, and in case you were wondering where that was, it was in the greater Northwest.

Welcome back Leslie. :cool:

JLMCDANIEL
Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

Does that mean they are also exempt from NFPA 54 part of which is the code that covers venting of gas appliances rather than the UPC?
Jack

havanagranite
Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

the whole issue of chinese drywall was off gassing that smelled like rotten eggs. and was only imported during the housing boom of about 5 years ago. it would have no bearing on your plumbing and since your house is 19 years old it wouldn't be a factor at all. this person is just trying to grasp at any straw to make themself look knowledge able. of the chinese drywall imported it was used in about 100,000 homes which isn't a great amount if you consider the amount of homes that were built during that time period. and these homes were mainly confined to the south east. I will not comment on plumbing it isn't one of the trades that I have first hand knowledge in.

I didn't realize we had a change in the poster who was being responded to. but the location the of the poster still would make chinese drywall a non issue.

goldhiller
Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

Yup........those of us who are "down on the farm" are just a bunch of Clem Kadiddlehoppers. We desparately need those "brilliant" city folks to tell us how ignorant we all are...... whle we produce the food that they conveniently grab off the shelf at the supermarket.

What's that old saying about biting the hand that feeds ya? I'm too dumb to remember.

BMAH

Moon Over My Hammy
Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe
oldhanggliderpilot wrote:

The explanation below might explain my leaks. I built my house in 2004. The plumber installed an instant hot water system. There is a pump that recirculates hot water from the farthest point away from the water heater through a third (plastic) tube back into the water heater. I have attached a picture of the pump. Last year, I noticed water all over the water heater and garage floor. I found a pin hole leak in the copper tubing. I patched the hole temporarily with a hose clamp and a piece of inner tube. Several weeks later, I noticed water again. I found a second pin hole near the first one. I replaced the piece of copper tubing. The piece with the pin holes in it was paper thin about an inch from the end of the tube. This week, I noticed water again and found a pin hole leak in another piece of the tubing. I have not repaired it yet but the leak is about an inch from the end of the tubing. After reading this explanation of the possible cause of the pin holes, I checked the piece of tubing I replaced last year. Although it was fairly thin near the end, it felt to me like the end had not been reamed before installation. Now I am wondering how well I reamed the ends of the piece I used last year to replace the bad one with. I think at this point I will replace all of the 1/2 inch tubing shown in the picture. There was no timer on the pump so the pump has been running 24/7 365 days a year. I also plan to put a timer on the pump when I replace the tubing. When I replace the tubing I will post another message in this forum telling what I find.

Moon Over My Hammy wrote:

That copper looks really BLACK on the outside and inside.

See no attachment on the water heater single wall vent connector before the bend elbow and not sealed see exposed crimping. Could that BLACKness on the outside be SOOT based chemical corrosive actions on the copper?

First thing is that flue exhast from gas water heater is corrosive and full of water vapor. The relationship/proximity of the corroding black copper and that breach for the vent makes me wonder if that isn't part of the problem.

Don't see any bonding jumpers thought Richard always installed near plumbing interuptions when by water heater?

2004 built house. See drywall behind water heater. Some of the recent lawsuits filed trace CHINESE DRYWALL back to 2001.

I read recently that one of the signs is BLACK discoloration on COPPER from hydrogen sulfide/sulfuric acid like fumes on copper. Something about iron pyrite or similar in the chinese drywall.

I read also that having laundry near gas water heater, using bleach, other chemicals causes same thing - and eats away at exposed copper really fast.

Moisture in the air or condensation on the pipe and black color on the copper in the pictures is why I mentioned this.

Why you wouldn't have the hot water lines insulated? I saw that in another article think it was mainly about saving energy.

oldhanggliderpilot wrote:

All thinning of the tubing was from the inside out and always in the first inch or so of the end of the tubing where the water entered the tubing. I also probably did not wipe the joints properly after sweating so I probably should go do that to remove any left over flux.

Explain what is meant by "the breach should be FIXED and a slope on the lateral". Is this comment referring to my installation or something else?

I would much rather be out flying than plumbing.

oldhanggliderpilot wrote:

I am an amateur at sweating copper so I most likely overheated the joints causing the blacking. I think I probably go a little heavy on the heat for fear I won't heat it enough.

I see what you were saying about the connection before the bend elbow and the exposed crimping. What kind of an attachment would you expect to see? There are screws through the elbow into the pipe below. The flue pipe after the elbow goes upward at about a 10-15 degree slope until it connects to the main flue.

I don't know about being in a seismic zone. Since this installation was inspected and approved, I have to think that the plumber and the guy who put in the flue pipe installed everything to code. Unless of course, the inspector (still not sure about the plumber) was an idiot.

Moon Over My Hammy wrote:

If you over heat the copper which can be done with propane such as when making a brazed joint not a sweated one or heat over heat it even higher you end up annealing the copper and making it softer. It is less strong to hold up to long term pressures.

If you're not on a farm then I'd expect minimum UPC standards local cities and counties can only make tougher standards to enforce not weaker ones. If you're on a farm than anything goes and they'd be inspecting nothing. UPC has been consistant on the vent connections even with Idaho's delayed adoption of UPC additions there haven't been changes to the sections on water heaters. Even if you're on a farm I'd think you'd want at least minimum safety.

Strapping for seismic not the only requirement, Flex connections to the tank are part of that depending on the zone. Wind can displace a tank too.

Even if your solder connections are perfect if there is even low level seismic activity it can stress and cause breaks. Tiny defects get worse from constant water pressure and friction from the water constantly moving.

The single wall vent connector has to be nested before screws attached, that offset should be down against the bulge you see below the crimping before the sheet metal screws installed. Same with the end against the draft hood should be down against it. The vent should be supported within the area photographed because of the offset or elbow none is visable. The lateral or horizontal portion of the vent connector single wall should have a pitch to it and also be supported. The instructions from the manufacturer of the water tank heater and the manufacturer of the vent material have this information also.

If your vent is oversized you can have serious problems too.

Many people are sickened and some die from Carbon Monoxide poisoning every year in this country. Electricity and water can also be a dangerous combination.

The rules for appliance tank water heater if not a farm were in place long before 2004, even if it is a farm safety is just as important. It is not a fixed system it is an appliance.

Moon Over My Hammy wrote:

Pilot profile location is IDAHO you "JACK" are in OHIO. Shows how LITTLE you know or bother to find out about IDAHO. FARMS in Unincorporated areas with private water supplies the State has not legislated UPC minimum standards for plumbing or building standards for structures or residences on PRIVATE BUILDINGS on FARMS. They are excluded from STATE mandated minimum Building Code standards.:p

JLMCDANIEL wrote:

Does that mean they are also exempt from NFPA 54 part of which is the code that covers venting of gas appliances rather than the UPC?
Jack

The State of IDAHO has not adopted NFPA 54 as a minimum code standard. They have adopted the IMC and the IFGC more recently, but not in time for the 2004 build date of Pilot's home (they're only now trying to get the legislation fixed to upgrade to 2006 from 2003 they didn't get 2003 in place in time for 2004 construction. However, the STATE of IDAHO EXEMPTS PRIVATE FARMS with non-public water supply from the Building Codes, and furthermore in UNINCORPORATED areas of COUNTIES PRIVATE FARMS are additionally EXPRESSLY EXEMPTED IF they have NO CONNECTIONS TO PUBLIC WATER SUPPLIES.

It is very obvious that NONE of the recent posters have any familiarity with IDAHO. It is also obvious "havanagranite" has not even the remotest knowledge about the History which has been documented on the CHINESE DRYWALL issues OR how FAR BACK the IMPORTS GO. It goes FAR BEYOND KANUF's purchase of a singular plant. Gypsum wall board has been manufactured in CHINA for longer than the German Company's activities there AND IMPORTING it to the USA. The corrosion of copper in these cases is well documented.

havanagranite wrote:

the whole issue of chinese drywall was off gassing that smelled like rotten eggs. and was only imported during the housing boom of about 5 years ago. it would have no bearing on your plumbing and since your house is 19 years old it wouldn't be a factor at all. this person is just trying to grasp at any straw to make themself look knowledge able. of the chinese drywall imported it was used in about 100,000 homes which isn't a great amount if you consider the amount of homes that were built during that time period. and these homes were mainly confined to the south east. I will not comment on plumbing it isn't one of the trades that I have first hand knowledge in.

I didn't realize we had a change in the poster who was being responded to. but the location the of the poster still would make chinese drywall a non issue.

Pilot's home was built in 2004. Chinese Drywall imports have been documented back to 2001. Imports have been documented and traced via west coast ports of entry, via Canada, via Texas, Mississippi, Texas, Florida and Virginia. It has been located in 35 States including Idaho, Montana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, Massachusetts, Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Kansas, California, Washington, and many others. Cases are filed in State level and Federal District Courts against builders, contractors, distributors, and Manufacturers. USG has been named in several as they were alledged to have been distributing it. Much 1/2" is not labeled or marked. Substantial amounts of 5/8" is also unmarked as to origin.

NEC
Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

Roflmao!.............!

The strange, green glowing light emitting from under and the door had dimmed for a time giving the little black cat hope. However,…………………

JLMCDANIEL
Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe
Moon Over My Hammy wrote:

However, the STATE of IDAHO EXEMPTS PRIVATE FARMS with non-public water supply from the Building Codes, and furthermore in UNINCORPORATED areas of COUNTIES PRIVATE FARMS are additionally EXPRESSLY EXEMPTED IF they have NO CONNECTIONS TO PUBLIC WATER SUPPLIES.

It is very obvious that NONE of the recent posters have any familiarity with IDAHO.

In researching the building code in Idaho (I used Yahoo no Google) it appears to me they have the same exemption for building codes that was in force in Ohio. That is an exemption for agricultural buildings Idaho 39-4116(4). I believe, as was in Ohio code, that this does not exempt from the code residences, tenant houses, farm hand living quarters, or buildings open to the public on farms and ranches. If I'm wrong please provide code section.
Jack

NEC
Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

LMAO!

Ya'll are going to make me wet my pants!

Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

Idaho is the home of those fantastic Idaho Spuds and potato farms are everywhere. However, I don't live on one of those farms. I live in a subdivision of $400k+ homes. At the time my house was built, I have to assume that it was built to whatever codes were in place at that time. As for Chinese drywall, whether I have it or not is/was not relevant to my leaking problem. Based on my examination of the tubing, I believe the leaking was caused by water erosion of the inside of the tubing. The erosion was accelerated by 24/7/365 water flow and the ridge on the ends of the tubing left from the tubing cutter.
The ridges should have been reamed out but the plumber neglected to do so. This erosion is very evident in the pictures in my earlier post of one of the pieces of tubing tubing that I replaced.

Thanks for all the posts and information. It has all been very interesting. I would now be going flying but the old in my name kind of applies now. But not too much!!!!!!!!!!!

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