Home>Discussions>PAINTING & FINISHING>New to TOH I need pro help! Please.
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generaldark
New to TOH I need pro help! Please.

Happly holidays to those who celebrate them. Happy work day to those who don't.

I usually do but today is my first christmas workday ever....short of building some new toys :) I'm so new here I have to finish reading the rules. I have a potential interior nightmare and need professional advice. I have pics, going to check the rules on that asap before I post them. I have 17 years painting experiance. I started in state funded projects for low income communities and have worked in 1 mansion, many high end homes. Alot of new construction and new businesses. All as an employee with a fair share of side work. Things were well for many years. Recently things aren't as well...So there's a little hitory on me. Oh yeah, I Love TOH just never got involved more then reading some issues and catching a few shows when I can.

So the problem at hand is an upper hallway cieling. The paint sagged and ran very bad. I believe it was a moisture/humidity issue. The house is prone to moisture for starters. I primed the whole interior (cielings/walls) 6 hours with a premium primer. The home owner has had some unsavory characters working here unfortunitly. The most recent pair told him it was because the surface temp was to cold. I have seen their work, one of which robbed the home owner of excessive materials. The other guy is still on site for other paint related work. But their work as a team so far has been less then decent.

The details:
Interior prime
Exterior temp around time of application 30ish degrees with light wind.
small cape
primed 5 rooms on lower level walls/cielings
primed 3 hallways walls/cielings
premium latex primer (havent checked the rules for advertising stuff)
second level is unfinshed and as of this post im unsure if it's insulated (owner keeps it locked and was away when I went to inspect the issue). It does however have brand new windows. No heat. It does get cold up there. Now, before I did this area, the doorway was open for several hours and the heat on the lower floor was set @ 72. I vented via 1 window and periodicly opening a door. I didn't feel a fane in the window was a good idea as it was cold outside. Now by the time I got to this area, I closed the door and hit the cieling. Sprayed for another 2-3 hours the humidity felt like any other spray job. Before I left I did a quick inspection of course. Everything looked fine. As good as drying primer will look...I come in the next day and not only did this cieling sag it ran alot. The cieling is not in contact with the roof. It's on a slant as this is an upper stair well. Only the cieling ran, the upper walls (verticals) didnt run at all, they look fine. Nothing anywhere ran or came out unexpected. So I'm trying to figure out if this is a surface temperature issue or a humudity moisture issue. The upper level has been closed since (4 days now) and of course feels cold. Once I did leave, I did lower the thermostat to 60 to save energy ( I always do that) but would think that would help the humidity after I lefted and locked up. If anyone wants to take a stab I'll figure out how to post the pics. Or go back to trying to enjoy christmas. Grrrr

***edit***
found a way to show my pics
also note i did not paint the exterior, that painter did a blow and go and never finished (hence no shutters).
Other laborers worked in here prior to my arrival, you may notice other little things like painted hinges, etc. I know and it's not me.

generaldark
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.

couple more pics..sorry they so big but atleast they load fast :) for most of us....

NEC
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.

Why did you put so much freak'n paint on the walls? What did you expect?

This is not rocket science, it is paint for crying out loud!

Why did it drip? You have got to be kidd'n the freak'n 'ell out of me!

You sprayed it????!!!!!!!!!!! Well DUH!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, go back to third grade............ I before E except after C....... Ceiling, ceiling, ceiling.

generaldark
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.
NEC wrote:

Why did you put so much freak'n paint on the walls? What did you expect?

This is not rocket science, it is paint for crying out loud!

Why did it drip? You have got to be kidd'n the freak'n 'ell out of me!

You sprayed it????!!!!!!!!!!! Well DUH!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, go back to third grade............ I before E except after C....... Ceiling, ceiling, ceiling.

Thank you kind sir for not only not reading my post. But for wasting my time as well as yours. I included a pic of another slanted cieling done the same day by me. They both received the same application. Thanks for your help but I think I'll keep looking. I need profesional painting help not grammer lessons, I have those on thursdays after learning to read typo. ;)

NEC
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.
generaldark wrote:

Thank you kind sir for not only not reading my post. But for wasting my time as well as yours. I included a pic of another slanted cieling done the same day by me. They both received the same application. Thanks for your help but I think I'll keep looking. I need profesional painting help not grammer lessons, I have those on thursdays after learning to read typo. ;)

Grammer? GrAMMER? Not Grammer?....... You need to learn how to spell my friend............ Here is a hint...... When paint is slopped on that thick it will drip...... Yes, you need "profesional" help.

generaldark
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.

I do hope to find some real advice here from someone who knows a few things about painting. Unlike my new friend NEC who seems to be more interested in flamming and proper english. No, I never attempted to present myself as an english major buddy. As for your advice, you don't know primer from paint from a toothbrush I'm guessing. Every wall and ceiling got the same prep and 1 coat of primer applied. The rest of the place looks fine. The ceiling in question was done about midway through the prime. So I was moving at full momentum and have total control over the amount of primer being applied. But enough explaning my thoughts to a forum junkie with nothing better to do. I'm stressed and looking for help. Not another forum trolled by flammers and "internet painter professionals". My apologies to everyone else from the huge pics to the extra reading.

NEC
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.
generaldark wrote:

But enough explaning my thoughts to a forum junkie with nothing better to do. I'm stressed and looking for help.

Get it. When paint is put on too thick it drips............

Is that a tough concept for your mind to grasp........ ?

generaldark
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.
NEC wrote:

Get it. When paint is put on too thick it drips............

Is that a tough concept for your mind to grasp........ ?

No, it is not. I can understand that oppinion and and respect it. "to much paint" was my first thought when I first saw it. It looks bad. It looked good when I left, theres no way it went on to heavy. I was worried I was going to run out. After cleaning my titan i had just under 1/2 gal left. I felt good... as usual ;)

Did my usual walk through after first finishing. Looked like the norm primer drying. Put my tools away, cleaned the spayer, one last walk through. Looked great drying fast. Show up the next day and did my walk through. Everything was looking great then I saw ALOT of paint on the paper on the first step going upstairs. Looked up and have been stressed out since. I have my oppinions and if I'm wrong so be it. I Just need to know my position on this. I feel it's an extreme humditiy problem. I took normal steps for the humidity from normal latex applications. I just feel this is an existing moisture problem which I was unaware of. Had I been told or seen exisiting signs of this, I obviously would have done things differently. I do plan on having a sales rep from the primer I used visit the site.

Can your mind grasp it could be something other than "oh you put on way to much go back to school etc etc"

If so what else could cause this?

A. Spruce
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.

I would say that you had two issues going on, the surface temperature was too low and the humidity was too high. Even though the space had been open to be heated and was relatively warm during the painting, it is doubtful that the surface temp had changed much. The humidity was also likely trapped in the cold room after you left, especially if you had closed the door. A fan circulating the air as well as leaving the room door open would have helped greatly.

It is possible that the insulation in the areas of the worst problems was either inadequate or missing, creating condensation of the humidity on these areas. I don't envy you having to deal with the aftermath now, nor do I have any suggestions on removing the runs and sags. If it were me I'd be inclined to try carefully wiping the runs with a wet rag to see if you can re-emulsify the paint and remove it well enough that you can repaint. Worst case scenario is you wait for the paint to fully cure, float and retexture the walls, and start over with the paint.

generaldark
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.

A. Spruce,
Thanks for the reply. Your conclusion from the pics was pretty dead on. Here's my final thoughts on it.

Diagnoses:
Overnight the following events took place.
Due to inadequate insulation in the upper level, the fact that the new windows leak, and other breaches found (daylight coming in around the central chimney for example).
The temperature in this area dropped much faster and lower than normal. On top of that you have humidity which I described to you caused from water seeping into the home and evaporating, the water vapor from the latex primer drying throughout the application and after. When warm water vapors reach cold air (or a cold surface in this case) they form condensation, much in the same way clouds are formed. It is this condensation that collected on the ceiling and began to run down and even drop or “rain” in some areas. As a result, the prime coat was re-emulsified and it was forced down the ceiling.

It's been a long weekend, to bad it had to be christmas weekend to deal with this. I see 2 options.
1. sand it down (maybe float it also)and wait untill spring to prime it.
2. Put a kerosene convection heater in the upper level and do just the cieling as a seperate job.

ordjen
Re: New to TOH I need pro help! Please.

General,

It sounds like you have a pretty good handle as to what the nature of the problem is - low temperatures and too much humidity. The house seems to be pre-1970's when building standards were toughened after the first energy crisis. Older homes had much less insulation and often had insulation which was not well installed, causing many cold spots. An interior wall to an unheated area could well be lacking any insulation and be very cold, causing extreme condensation.

When possible, I would keep the temperature up to at least 70 degrees to reduce the relative humidity. If it were a forced- air heating system, I would leave the furnace fan on "run" to even out the humidity in the house. Even in the winter, I would carry a strong box fan to ensure drying before condensation caused the paint to run. This was often the case in upper exterior corners of rooms where the insulation had obviously sagged. You have to keep the air moving!

As too handling the sagged paint: I would probably let it dry, sand down the high spots and then skim coat drywall compound to even it out. Then prime and paint.

In the future, try to reduce your file size before posting, I had to scroll back and forth to see all your comments and pictures.

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