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The difference in system efficiency will not vary by any great difference with different fuels. NG is slightly lower and LP slightly higher than oil. But again, that difference is only a few dollars over the course of a year.
You would have to do a comparison based on BTU's per dollar for fuel to determine if a switch is going to pay off. Although almost anything seems to be cheaper than oil at this time, will it always be that way? We've been through these cycles before and over time it all seems to even out.
If you are considering a switch to LP then you'd have to purchase and maintain a tank to get the best pricing. It also gives the flexibility to shop by price. If it's natural gas you may have to pay toward having the gas line run to the house depending on how far you are from a main. Add that to the cost of switching out the burner, think about how long you'll be in that house, then make a decision on what to do.
My name is Patrick and I live on long island NY. I had a LIPA energy audit done and among other upgrades (insulating attic to about r-49 etc) they recommended I change my current oil fired boiler. I have an almost 50 year old 2,600 sq foot colonial. The current set up is a Dunkirk Boiler installed in 1988 with a coil for DHW. It has a Beckett burner. The contractor recommends the system 2000 based on the fact that we intend to stay in the home (newly purchased) for at least 25 years. The quote (with rebates included) is about 10,200. We are a family of 7 and I noticed that System 2000 (according to the website literature) does not offer a 50 gallon water tank. It goes from standard 40 gallons to 75 gallons and up which seems too big. The contractor said they could put in a Peerless cast iron boiler for about 2,500 less and said he would have recommended that is were planning to sell in 5-7 years. He stated the System 2000 is the most efficient and has advanced electronic controls while the peerless still uses the same Honeywell dial controls they have for the last 50 years. He also implied that the oil saving with a brand new Peerless would not be impressive. What do you think?
I had searched these forums prior to having my System 2000 installed in July of last year. I still have another 6 months to go to have a nice years worth of usage to be able to compare my savings over the previous boiler. I was just checking back to see if anyone had posted anything new about their experiences when I saw your post. I too live on Long Island, my house is a 2300 sq. ft. expanded cape. I have been in the process of installing R-49 insulation in my attic (I am using all fiberglass batts, faced R-19 between the joists and a perpendicular layer of unfaced R-30 on top of that). Also i am doing all the air sealing in the attic as well, did your contractor mention air-sealing? This is an extremely important part of insulating. The old boiler that I replaced was also a Dunkirk, probably around the same age as the one you are replacing. The only difference is that I had a separate oil-fired DHW tank for my hot water. So far I am very happy with the System 2000 boiler. I have tracked my oil usage over the past 2 years in an excel spreadsheet, and by doing a quick and dirty comparison to where I am today with oil, I believe the 40% savings is going to be realistic. That being said, even if in the end it only comes out to say a 25% savings, that would pay for that 2500 dollar premium for the System 2000 in 2 1/2 years, and from there you would be saving 25% every year. And since we all are pretty aware that oil prices are only going to continue to rise in the coming years, a large savings like this is an excellent return on any investment. Also, since I am in the weatherization business, I did the energy audit on my home, and am doing most of the work myself. Obviously I hired someone to install the system 2000. With no rebates I paid substantially less for my system then what you were quoted. Your system could possibly have some extras that I did not get/need. But I would be happy to pass along the companies info to you if you are interested in getting a second estimate. I hope that this information is helpful, and I plan to post a follow-up to this e-mail once I officially crunch my usage numbers in July.
Thanks for the reply. Yes they are doing sealing in fact they foam sealed around all the a/c ductwork in the attic for no charge. It's probably part of LIPA audit that they do that. We do not have a water heater so the System 2000 price includes their indirect DHW system. Perhaps that accounts for some of the price difference or maybe not. Maybe the quotes are jacked up and the rebates deducted to make one think it's a good deal. What would a cast Iron Peerless be with having to install an indirect water system? Probably 8,000 or more? Send me your installation companies info if you would. The guy who did the audit was very high on this system.
We are going to pay for them to blow insulation the attic and frankly it's just as well. my attic is daunting in it's size with ductwork everywhere. You can't stand up in it. Kudos for you for getting it done yourself.
Glad to hear they're doing all the air-sealing, I personally believe that 50% of the savings that you are going to get from the new insulation will be attributed to air sealing. I also have central air, and the one thing I have yet to tackle, and I believe will make another noticeable improvement, is getting covers for all the a/c grills throughout my home. I close the louvers on my grills during the winter, but those louvers aren't very air tight, or at all insulated. So warm room air will rise up into the ductwork through this grilles, quickly cool off, and then drop back into the room. You may want to ask your auditor if they offer those types of covers as part of the air sealing. I have found a few companies that make them, but at around 20 bux a pop, getting a rebate on them would be nice.
In getting my System 2000 I replaced both the boiler and the separate oil fired DHW heater. So I have the complete System 2000 with the indirect storage tank. The only issue I had with the hot water was that it wasn't set quite as hot as I would have liked initially, but a small increase in the tanks aquastat immediately solved that problem. Seeings that you are a family of 7 you may want to go for the larger tank. I know on there website there is a spec of the gallons per hour that each of there systems produces. And it looks like each system has a range depending on the nozzle size you use in the burner.
I am not sure what the price on the peerless would be, I believe that a couple years ago i asked Slomins, who at the time I was getting my oil from, and the guy said it would cost around 8000 for the Peerless, not sure if that would include an indirect, since I wasn't really ready to pull the trigger on the new boiler at that time.
The contractor I used is Soundview Heating & Air Conditioning. They are located in Port Jefferson Station, 585 North Bicycle Path, Suite 8. They are a smaller family business, very nice people to work with. The owner, John Celentano, was one of the mechanics that installed my boiler.
And in regards to the fiberglass insulation, let's say it is one of those long-term projects! I had to remove about (10) sheets of plywood that where nailed down for flooring (which i had to cut in place into small enough pieces that they would fit out the attic window! Then I did all the air sealing, foaming, caulking, covering kitchen soffits with foam board. The whole first layer of faced R-19 is installed, and some of the second layer of R-30, but there is still plenty of work to be done!
That also reminds me, if you have soffit vents, be sure that they are installing soffit baffles prior to doing the blow-in. Without correctly installed soffit baffles the outside air blows right up through those soffit vents, and through the insulation installed at the edges of the attic. Air moving through the insulation this way will degrade the R-value of the insulation greatly.
Are you doing many lighting upgrades? There is substantial savings to be had there as well, if you are going from incandescents to either CFL or LED bulbs.
Interesting. I'm not sure what to think. A friend of ours did the LIPA audit program and he got a Weil McClain with an indirect DHW tank with 5 zones and paid $9,000. For some reason I was under the impression that the System 2000 was going to cost more but it sounds like $10,000 is way too much. If I go though this program I can finance through my LIPA bill and the amount is supposed be equal I guess to what we would have been spending per month anyway on our old energy bills. So far that seems like an advantage along with the fact that we know the contractor but then again to have the system installed he has a plumbing company do it. The other side of it is the impression I am getting from you that $10,200 is an outrageous quote for system 2000 and that is should be the same price as any other higher end bran. and model boiler? (Peerless, Slant Fin, Weil McClain etc). I've seen people posting ****** say they were quoted $10,000. I also do not know which model they are talking EK1 or Ek2 etc...
When I was reading a lot of reviews before I pulled the trigger I was getting that 10k and 11k number a lot as well. I was actually over at my father in-laws house when he was having his energy audit done, and was talking to the contractor who was doing the work. We started talking System 2000 because I figured he may have heard of it being in the same industry, and wanted to pick his brain. He has the System 2000 in his house, and through the program said he has installed a handful of them. He recommended Soundview to me, which is who he uses for his installs, and then I contacted them directly. It cost me right in the ballpark of what your friend paid for his Weil McClain. The other thing that may have effected the price on my end was that I had it installed in July, possibly a slightly slower time of year for HVAC contractors, depending on how much A/C work they have.
I would assume going through the energy auditing company you are going to pay a small premium since they will bring in a plumber to do the work. But, like you mentioned, at the same time you can do the payment through your utility bill, which I am pretty sure is only an option if you do the work through the Energy Audit program (so going through the program definitely brings some great options to the table).
For me, the fact that I plan to be in my home for a long time (25+ years), I wanted the system that was going to save me the most money each year, even if it cost me a couple thousand more up front. And going back to your first posting, where your guy would recommend the Peerless option if you were only planning on staying in the house 5-7 years, vs. the System 2000 for the longer term, he is giving you solid information. I would give the exact same advise if I were in his shoes. Why pay the premium for someone else to reap the long term benefits, but since you are planning long term, you will get to enjoy those savings.
Very well then. Thanks for your posts!! I will post again once the system is installed.
Very well then. Thanks for your posts!! I will post again once the system is installed.
We never had the Energy Kinetics system installed. We now have natural gas on our block. We are going to have a wall mounted NAVIEN condensing combination boiler/tankless water heater installed. They install System 2000 only if we would have still had oil.