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A. Spruce
Re: Build your own cabinets
goldhiller wrote:

If you keep your lams in the order they came out of the "mother-baord"...they may not need any planing before glue-up. Depends upon the blade you're running, how much wobble/run-out in that blade/arbor, etc. Hypothetically...each one should mirror its neighbor. Sometimes this works out, sometimes not. Depends.

If the laminate were going to be kept flat, this would probably work, but because the lam will be bent, those mirror images will get offset. Me no thinky that this will worky. ;):p

goldhiller
Re: Build your own cabinets
A. Spruce wrote:

If the laminate were going to be kept flat, this would probably work, but because the lam will be bent, those mirror images will get offset. Me no thinky that this will worky. ;):p

Well now....me thinky/knowy ;) that it depends upon how much variation there is in the cut. :D Iffin' just a little tad and a gentle bend of the lams, then the offset/resulting "gapsiosis" won't really be much and things may still nestle up nicely under the clamps. This is why I said....."Sometimes this works out, sometimes not. Depends."

But yes....you're definitely right and a point well made.... that if the cutting results in some serious vibration of the blade....or tilting of the cut...or...or...or...the lams may not line up/squeeze up well enough once in the bend.....without planing them.

How's about I say....Walt, you'd best not count on the lams lying tightly to one another without planing them. That would be the truth, not? And the safest approach, I must admit. Wouldn't be a good thing if he cut those *hoping* they'd snuggle well enough and then find out they didn't, have to shave them back and add more lams to make up difference. :eek:

Maybe we should tell/coach him in making a steaming chamber and bend these critters as whole pieces? I think it's time he tackled/learned this...don't you? :D

waltdeckhouse
Re: Build your own cabinets

Man oh man. ask the simplest of questions. :0)

I don't quite follow the reasoning for not using the bandsaw to cut the lams. All the cutting force goes down, right? Ahh...maybe that is the problem. The down force pulls the arc down to the table? the thought of the tablesaw scares me :eek:

Hey back to this oil tank thing. I am being told that underground tanks are going to become against the law soon in MD. I am being told to abandon the existing tank in place and have an above ground tank installed. ~$3k total. So now I am thinking of alternative energy sources. Heat pump and natural gas are the only other real options. Gas is ~$70k to get the lines run down the street to the castle....so that is out of the question. Can a heat pump be integrated into the existing plumbing where a AC was? We have oil fired base board heat for the cold months...and forced air for the hot months. Does it make sense to leave the oil in place and have a heat pump do the heavy lifting? We just had an AC unit installed 3 years ago....but that was relatively cheap ~$1.4k. I calculated i spent ~$3k last year on #2 heating oil. Do you guys know of a website or resource that can help with this decision? I found a DOE site that compares fuel..

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

by this comparison a heat pump is a lot cheaper. BTW..geothermal is too expensive also ~$40k. our house has a lot of tree canopy so cooling costs are low...maybe a heat pump could handle this? i am definitely losing my shirt with this house :eek:

A. Spruce
Re: Build your own cabinets
goldhiller wrote:

Maybe we should tell/coach him in making a steaming chamber and bend these critters as whole pieces? I think it's time he tackled/learned this...don't you? :D

Now THERE'S an idea! Norm even went over this when he made some bent wood pieces for one of his projects a few years ago. Making lams is for pansies! :D;)

waltdeckhouse wrote:

Man oh man. ask the simplest of questions. :0)

I don't quite follow the reasoning for not using the bandsaw to cut the lams. All the cutting force goes down, right? Ahh...maybe that is the problem. The down force pulls the arc down to the table? the thought of the tablesaw scares me :eek:

Just be thankful that someone else isn't in here confusing the issue.:p;) The bandsaw will be the most efficient for cutting the veneer if you're not purchasing commercial product. IMHO, you'll need to surface the veneer strips before attempting the lam process. Goldie makes some good points, it may be possible to omit the surfacing if the conditions are right, however I'd definitely dry fit the piece in the form with the clamps applied to see if you like it, even then I'd add a reference mark so that when you take it apart to apply the glue and reinsert it into the form, you get it back in there exactly the way you had it the first time. IMHO, too much work and too much room for error, so I would go the surfacing route to alleviate any issues.

As for cutting the finished lam on the bandsaw, I don't really see a problem with it, given the proper set up. Goldie recommends using the female side of the form as the support while cutting, I don't see any problems with this because the form should be wider than the finished piece, and the veneers should be wider than the form, so as you cut, you shouldn't be chopping into the form. An alternative would be to set up a small block several inches in front of the blade to act as a support for the arch, this way piece has two points of support and the blade can cut with no chance of it slapping or binding the piece down on the table. IMHO there is more safety with the bandsaw because the blade is moving in a single direction, not an arc like the table saw, so there is no chance for a kickback situation, only pinched fingers without the aforementioned secondary support. Whichever saw you use, you'll still need to dress up the cut edge, likely through the thickness planer.

Sorry, can't offer an opinion on the oil tank issue.

waltdeckhouse
Re: Build your own cabinets

I am getting ready to do the lamination thing (sorry to report the steam bending option just is not in the cards for a low budget operation such as myself :) ) I have some questions

1. Is it a good idea to wet the boards before laminating? It seems like putting some moisture into the fibers might relieve some of the stress in the final product. along the same lines...does it do any good to sort of "pre-conidtion" the lams by wetting them and sticking them into the lam press to dry (without glue) a day ahead. Then glue things up in this sort of pre-set condition?

2. I was going to use normal yellow glue for this. The radius does not "feel" that tight when I put a piece in the form (you can hold it in place with your hands) Will yellow glue be OK...or should I seek out those special lam glues?

3. what do you guys think of geothermal heating? OK...that has nothing to do with laminations...but I thought I might suck you in with the fun stuff. We have been getting some quotes around $14k to change our forced air system over to geo heat and cooling. lots of money up front....but then we are no longer at the mercy of big oil. still at the mercy of big electric though..

goldhiller
Re: Build your own cabinets

Hey Walt,

Nice to hear from ya...cause for one thing....it means you're still up and amid the living. ;)

On that kinda bend...there should be no need of wetting or pre-bending anything...if your lams are 1/8" or so. If you can hold them in place against the form with nothing more than your hands.........yikes.....glue & clamp away.

Done all manner of bent lams with Titebond 2 and never had a failure. Slather it on evenly (no need for great gobs of excess glue either) and clamp things. Stay with it till the squeeze-out is the consistency of bubble gum and scrape it off. Go to bed. (Brewski is allowed whilst waiting for glue to thicken up)

One caveat with using "cold" yellow glues is that you're apt to get some "cold-creep". IOW, the glue may/will creep a bit out of the joints when the wood dries down again. Since the glue will add some moisture to the wood...the wood will shrink/contract a bit when it dries down and the glue will be left protruding just a tad at those seams. *If* you can wait a week or more before sanding those edges...you can remove much of this cold-creep at that time. If you're in too much of a rush or can't wait for whatever reason....it ain't that big of a deal in this instance cause your lams are very narrow (relatively speaking) and so there isn't apt to be much cold-creep anyway.

This is all a bit more important if you decide to use a penetrating finish rather than a film type finish as a film type finish will cover/span over any creep anyway. A penetrating finish won't do that and so you may feel the creep if your fingers run over it.

Another consideration is that since you're using a dark colored wood....you may want to use a dark colored glue instead. That way if your lams don't seam up *just so*...the color of the glue will more closely match the color of the wood and those seams will be less visible to the eye.

I'll stay outta the heating discussion as I have no firsthand experience with geothermal heating. Read alot about it all, but....that doesn't mean much in the real world.

PS- Steam chambers can be quite simple and inexpensive. Our first was a piece of 6" diameter galvy heat-duct pipe over a wood fire outside...... bending lams for a couple very fancy rocking chairs. Worked great. Wood, fire, water..... & beer while we waited. Who could ask for more? :D

waltdeckhouse
Re: Build your own cabinets

Thanks for the lam advice. Tonight will be my first attempt. Wish me lots of spilled glue!!

Quick question....I thought I remembered someone saying that the new type of PT requires stainless screws. is that right? Will galvanized or those plastic coated screws (HD type) work with the new chemicals in PT?

bp21901
Re: Build your own cabinets

Walt, That up front cost of $14k is a lot less than some geothermal quotes I have heard discussed. Was that a consistent price from a couple contractors who have done those systems before? What about a supplemental heat source like a coal stoker or small hand fed stove? We have heated with our hand fed coal stove for many years. I am on the eastern shore and it takes about 2 ton of coal @ ~$200 / ton to keep us warm and independent of Big Oil. We have a propane furnace that is used if we go away. Just another option to consider.

Stainless Screws are recommended for the new PT.

waltdeckhouse
Re: Build your own cabinets

Wow...coal!! I guess you need a special stove to burn that stuff?? How do you get the fire going?

Regarding the question on PT and screw material: do the hangers need to be stainless also?

goldhiller
Re: Build your own cabinets

Walt,

Yes....SS screws/nails and SS joist hangers, etc....on anything I build with ACQ. Galvy won't cut it even though hot-dipped triple-coated ones are sold for this purpose. Same goes for the triple-coated galvy joist hangers. Simpson originally said theirs (Z-Max) would work fine, but then revised that about a year later or so and now recommends that you install a membrane/gasket between the hanger and the wood. And the point would be ??? Just use the SS hangers and be done with it.

SS for anything in direct contact with the ACQ treated wood is the bottom line......in my book anyway. You *could* use galvy bolts for ledger attachment to the house, for example....*if* you install a piece of vinyl hose or similar around the shank of the bolt and a gasket under the washers to prevent direct contact.

Here's a few pics of common galvy joist hangers after 6 months contact with ACQ treated stock on a outdoor deck. The more water/dampness that the installation sees, the faster things go south...so to speak. It's mostly the result of the di-electric reaction between the copper in the treated wood and the galvy coating. The galvy loses the contest. Same for aluminum. Look at a galvanic scale and you can see what'll work well and what won't. The closer two materials are on that scale, the better.

http://www.roofhelp.com/galvanicscale.htm

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